Horton

[tools4fools]

The additional weight (mass) behind the cg has to be offset with weight (mass) added ahead of the cg.

Indeed, nobody disputes this.

But the Jumo added a lot of weight forward too, remember?
Not only behind.
So correctly placed there is no need for additional weight.
In particular as the majority of weight seems to be forward in the Jumo 004.

http://deanoinamerica.files.wordpres.../jumo004_1.jpg

There certainly seem to be more bits n pieces in those 60% percent mounted forward on the wing.


Additionally check this out, from this book:
http://www.amazon.com/The-Luftwaffe-...123503&sr=1-12

Me262wing01.jpg

As we see Jumo jet, still straight inner wings.

So we are likely back to this:

On 1 March 1940, instead of moving the wing backward on its mount, the outer wing was repositioned slightly aft; the trailing edge of the mid-section of the wing remained unswept. Based on data from the AVA Göttingen and wind tunnel results, the middle section's leading edge was later swept to the same angle as the outer panels

++++

[ACE-OF-ACES]

Originally Posted by tools4fools

But the Jumo added a lot of weight forward too, remember?

I think you need to take another look at my drawing!

And note the overlay I did of the BMW on the Jumo (bottom center)..

First look at the overlay of the two engines ahead of the cg and note that the BMW and Jumo occupy about the same space ahead of the cg. Which means 'very little' NEW weight was added ahead of the cg due to the replacement of the BMW with the Jumo. That is to say the two almost cancel each other out. By candled out I mean subtract the BMW weight that was there from the Jumo that is now there and you will see that very little 'NEW' weight was added ahead of the cg

Now look at the overlay of the two engines behind the cg and note that the BMW and Jumo do NOT occupy the same space behind the cg. Which means 'a lot' of NEW weight was added behind the cg due to the replacement of the BMW with the Jumo. That is to say the two do NOT cancel each other out. By candled out I mean subtract the BMW weight that was there from the Jumo that is now there and you will see that 'a lot' of NEW weight was added behind of the cg

Which means they would have to add weight ahead of the cg to maintain the cg due to the replacement of the BMW with the Jumo

Hope that helps!

[Al Schlageter]

tools, you need to read the 4 volume tome on the Me262 by Smith and Creek.

[ACE-OF-ACES]

I realized my verbal descriptions can confuse some people, so I took the liberty of creating another drawing that shows what I was describing in my last post.. The red being the new weight the Jumo added.. I also added the swept wing area in Green.. See attached

Enjoy

[bongodriver]

Wow....this waste of bandwidth is still going on?

Would have been nice to learn something about the Horton....but instead I see it turned into another 'Germany was a nation of supermen who invented absolutely every thing ever....period!!! and history is written by the winners so it's all lies lies lies!!!'

The 262 was not so revolutionary, pioneering but not revolutionary, swept wings were a british invention (J.W.Dunne), the automatic slats were already on the 109......a Handley page patented design.

Oh and why doesn't Leicester Space centre say anything about Von-Braun?
My guess is because its simply a family based experience of a place with the purpouse of inspiring youngsters to look to the heavens and not be a monument to wars, nothing to do with re-writing history.

IMO Von Braun should have gone to the Nuremberg trials, he did after all design and build the V2 weapons that were indiscriminately slaughtering British civillians in that war, yes his glory and acclaim as the best rocket scientist ever was stained in British blood, he was just lucky he was needed to continue that research at the behest of the americans and their space race.

[ACE-OF-ACES]

Originally Posted by bongodriver

he was just lucky he was needed to continue that research at the behest of the americans and their space race.

Sad but true..

I often wonder..

What would have been Von Braun's fate had Robbert Goddard not died in Aug of 1945 of throat cancer?

[Bewolf]

Originally Posted by bongodriver

IMO Von Braun should have gone to the Nuremberg trials, he did after all design and build the V2 weapons that were indiscriminately slaughtering British civillians in that war, yes his glory and acclaim as the best rocket scientist ever was stained in British blood, he was just lucky he was needed to continue that research at the behest of the americans and their space race.

Though the rest of your post in personal opinion garbage, this last paragraph is something I'd actually agree to. The end does not justify the means.
That said, this thread was not for your personal education.

[bongodriver]

Though the rest of your post in personal opinion garbage

Garbage?......read the thread and you will se I speak the truth....check Mr tools4fools posts.

this thread was not for your personal education.

What exactly is this supposed to mean?

[Bewolf]

Originally Posted by bongodriver

Garbage?......read the thread and you will se I speak the truth....check Mr tools4fools posts.

You are argueing like Ace. In that you take some ppl and their inventions and make them the creators of the applications derived of those, completly neglecting the point that what it is all about is brining new inventions together to really create something never seen before.

You support Ace, but then you bring in J.W.Dunne as inventor of swept wings.
So, where is the jet fighter Dunne's created to actually make use of swept wings?

Same story.

What exactly is this supposed to mean?

Exactly what it said. You complain about the content of this thread and it not beeing interesting enough? Do not read it then. Or contribute a bit more constructivly. At least Ace, Tools and me put more into this thread then just ranting and offending.

[ACE-OF-ACES]

Originally Posted by Bewolf

You are argueing like Ace. In that you take some ppl and their inventions and make them the creators of the applications derived of those, completly neglecting the point that what it is all about is brining new inventions together to really create something never seen before.

You have that 180 out..

Allow me.. The premise that I am working from here is the history channel types of history that one sees being stated as true history is anything but..

And my goal is to point that out each and every time I see it come up.. For true histories sake

In that the history channel types of history, that sells, is to portray the Me262, Go229 and V2as something that appeared out of thin air. That is to say the history channel type of history gives those watching, who don't know any better, the impression that nobody in the world knew what a rocket was until a V2 hit a target.. Or that nobody knew what a jet was until the Me262 shot down a B17.. Or that nobody in the world knew what a flying wing was until the US captured the Go229 and that Northrop reversed engineered it to build the B2

I have simply pointed out here that all these systems were build on previous work! That is to say they didn't appear out of thin air in Germany one day due to the worked of a German scientists nor was the technology passed onto the Germans via aliens

With that said

Robert Goddard was building rockets in the 20s, 30s and 40s
The US and UK had jet fighters in operation during WWII
Jack Northrop was building flying wings in the 20s, 30s, 40s and 50s

So all this stuff (V2 rocket, Me262 fighter, Go229 Flying Wing) was done way before the Germans did it during WWII, as in it did not just appear one day out of thin air

About the only thing mentioned in this thread that was unique to one nation was the development and employment of an atomic bomb.. And you can bet your bottom dollar splinting atoms to make a bomb was a much bigger achievement than the natural progression of the technology mentioned above.