how are these 109s turns 180 with out penalties?

[SlipBall]

Originally Posted by ATAG_Doc

They get a significant loss of energy when you put pullets in the pilot that's for sure. lolol Fix your aim.

We laugh at your pullets, they are useless against our bullets

[bw_wolverine]

Originally Posted by recoilfx

Brit planes are easy to pick up. They are more stall proof and more stable gun platforms. They also have better tracers, gun sight, and rear views.

109s are harder to master. They are much more unstable; they can't follow turns; gunnery is also difficult. But if the pilot can master 109's energy potentials, they are the superior planes to fly.

Have you actually flown a Hurricane, arguably the best fighter we have available until people let us use the IIa? Unless the target is 3k above you, or you have your cockpit constantly open, you can't see the deathstar on your six.

I have hopped in a 109 and the view from that thing is 10x better than a Hurricane.

And trying to suggest that the gun sight and tracers are making up for the deficiencies against the opposing speed, dive, firepower, and damage resistance is a little disingenuous.

You CAN win against 109s in the I, Ia, and Hurricane, but unless you're pilot of the year or the 109 pilot makes several mistakes, you need specific conditions (mostly height and surprise).

Maybe that's enough for people, for the game. But I'm getting awfully tired of 109 pilots trying to assure us red pilots that there's nothing different, they're just better. At least admit you've got advantages over the red pilots. There are plenty of very good red pilots who do very well. But I seem to notice that all the people I know who don't like to play games unless they rack up a score tend to be moving to the blue side of things....

EDIT: Sorry to sound a little pissed off. It's not directed at anyone in particular. We have a very hard time dealing with 109s that are flown by average pilots, let alone skilled ones. And all we seem to get for providing the targets for the turkey shoot most of the time is some guy on teamspeak hopping into our channel to blast German march music at us? The game is hard enough. I know it's supposedly in 'good fun', but after struggling to compete and no one flying bombers because the blenheim falls apart if you SPIT at it, what chance do we have. That's why I've turned to flying escort missions almost exclusively if ANYone will fly the blenheims during the hours I'm in.

[recoilfx]

Originally Posted by bw_wolverine

Have you actually flown a Hurricane, arguably the best fighter we have available until people let us use the IIa? Unless the target is 3k above you, or you have your cockpit constantly open, you can't see the deathstar on your six.

I have hopped in a 109 and the view from that thing is 10x better than a Hurricane.

And trying to suggest that the gun sight and tracers are making up for the deficiencies against the opposing speed, dive, firepower, and damage resistance is a little disingenuous.

You CAN win against 109s in the I, Ia, and Hurricane, but unless you're pilot of the year or the 109 pilot makes several mistakes, you need specific conditions (mostly height and surprise).

Maybe that's enough for people, for the game. But I'm getting awfully tired of 109 pilots trying to assure us red pilots that there's nothing different, they're just better. At least admit you've got advantages over the red pilots. There are plenty of very good red pilots who do very well. But I seem to notice that all the people I know who don't like to play games unless they rack up a score tend to be moving to the blue side of things....

EDIT: Sorry to sound a little pissed off. It's not directed at anyone in particular. We have a very hard time dealing with 109s that are flown by average pilots, let alone skilled ones. And all we seem to get for providing the targets for the turkey shoot most of the time is some guy on teamspeak hopping into our channel to blast German march music at us? The game is hard enough. I know it's supposedly in 'good fun', but after struggling to compete and no one flying bombers because the blenheim falls apart if you SPIT at it, what chance do we have. That's why I've turned to flying escort missions almost exclusively if ANYone will fly the blenheims during the hours I'm in.

Wolverine, I used to fly RAF exclusively, then I switched to the 109 for the challenge, I have flown for both sides.

I am not sure why you are offended though. I have stated that the 109 is a better plane in the game at the right hands, so if a red pilot can consistently out fly me I know that he is a better pilot (not comparing to Spit IIa).

Brit planes ARE easier to pick up, but 109 has more potentials to exploit, for the reasons I've already stated, i don't think I am wrong in any of that (Yes, I know that the Hurricane doesn't have great rear view, but you must have realize the 109 suffers the same?).

If you think that 109s are that much superior and as easy to master, please, come fly with us. As you may have noticed, red pilots almost always outnumber us blue pilots on ATAG. We are not born to fly one sided after all.

[SQB]

Regarding the original post... Sounds like you were versing AI or playing on singleplayer. For some reason AI can roll at light speed and have all sorts of physics-breaking maneuvers.

[bw_wolverine]

Originally Posted by recoilfx

Wolverine, I used to fly RAF exclusively, then I switched to the 109 for the challenge, I have flown for both sides.

I am not sure why you are offended though. I have stated that the 109 is a better plane in the game at the right hands, so if a red pilot can consistently out fly me I know that he is a better pilot (not comparing to Spit IIa).

Brit planes ARE easier to pick up, but 109 has more potentials to exploit, for the reasons I've already stated, i don't think I am wrong in any of that (Yes, I know that the Hurricane doesn't have great rear view, but you must have realize the 109 suffers the same?).

If you think that 109s are that much superior and as easy to master, please, come fly with us. As you may have noticed, red pilots almost always outnumber us blue pilots on ATAG. We are not born to fly one sided after all.

I'm not offended. I'm frustrated and venting a little. It's not personally at you or anyone.

109 is not easy. Never said that. 109 has great potential above that of Ia and Hurri. I shoot down my share of 109s, but usually not the ones flown by competent pilots. And the 109 view on your six is significantly better, at least in my opinion. The rear armour slants backwards leaving you much better high six viewing. The hurricane rear view is a big steel wall that makes checking your own six nearly useless. I'd use the mirror but...exactly.

The biggest part of my frustration comes from blue pilots saying 'it's not hard, fly to your strengths, and the fight is equal'. Yes, absolutely. If I fly at 15k ft and dive only on targets that I have an advantage over, I will kill and not be killed for quite a while. This will not give me much action though. It will also leave all the ground targets undefended.

Flying to the strengths of the Red aircraft basically leaves our targets open for business to attacking bombers. Engaging a 109 co-alt is almost always a death wish. Running from a 109 co-alt is a death wish. Diving from a 109 co-alt is a death wish. You need the height. Baring that, you hope for a head on pass that doesn't kill you...wait, he's got nearly 0 convergence and cannon rounds. ARG!

It's very difficult if you've not followed good procedure and done your homework on when and where to engage. That's GREAT! I love that it's like that. But it's FRUSTRATING because that method of play means Red will lose the map. Until bombers attacking the targets start flying in at 10k+, Red will continue to mostly be bait for 109s. Unless you don't care about winning or losing the map, which some people don't - they just want to get in and kill hun.

We win sometimes, but only when we're lucky enough to have dedicated bomber pilots like Tonka or Torian flying red and systematically throwing blenheims at the charnel house that is France.

To be clear, I don't think the real problem here is flight models or what have you. I think the problem is that the mission setup on ATAG forces Red players who want to play for the mission to fly to their weaknesses and not their strengths and more often than not it results in being shot down.

The only thing we could really try, I think, to level things up is to start bombing from altitude, but with maybe two blenheims at a time trying to put it in the pickle barrel, I think that would take more time to hit the targets than there is time in the mission.

So when I get frustrated or pissed off about blues bragging upon winning a map its because they've already got Red by the short and curlys the moment the map starts.

I've seen plenty of skill in dogfights. I've yet to see skill win the map. It's either luck or time.

[ACE-OF-ACES]

Originally Posted by GF_Mastiff

I just watched a 109 turn 180 degrees and not lose power or energy?!

Make sure the energy measureing tool you used is calibrated for the 109 variant your testing prior to testing..

[CaptainDoggles]

Originally Posted by GF_Mastiff

I just watched a 109 turn 180 degrees and not lose power or energy?!

Prove that it didn't lose power or energy.

Prove it.

Otherwise, shut up.

[bw_wolverine]

Also just some comments regarding the 'easy to pick up' red fighters.

How does that in any way help our cause? I didn't get the impression that online Cliffs of Dover WWII combat flight sim was a good 'casual' game. Especially when the only server(s) that really offers any hope of finding another player are ones that run full real settings.

Any advantage an easy to pick up plane might have in terms of numbers of pilots capable of flying it is tossed out the window.

So, I understand where mastiff is coming from. He's frustrated. I don't believe that the 109s keep all their energy in turns. It's a good pilot who dropped down and is using his plane correctly. There's nothing really the matter with having the 'better' plane. Just admit it. I just think a lot of 109 pilots won't admit it because they don't want to open up their kill tally to the disclaimer that that suggests. *shrug*. I'll be the first to admit that when I rarely get a IIa, my kills in it are likely 25% to 50% dependant on the machine I'm in, rather than my skill in it.

[Flanker35M]

S!

The only plane that is dangerous to the Bf109E is the Rotol Hurricane. Sissyfire I and Ia you can outdive etc. but that fat winged gremlin keeps up Osprey..if you see the tracers better it is easier to aim. And those 8 guns on RAF planes make mince meat of the 109 very quickly. Especially the MG tracers are very vague in the 109 and cannons too slow to hit anything so I would sure appreciate brighter tracers at times..

But anyways..these debates and discussions about alleged superiority of plane X or Y have been raging for ages and will never stop. Poor horse will never get rest from the eternal beating

[bw_wolverine]

Originally Posted by Flanker35M

S!

The only plane that is dangerous to the Bf109E is the Rotol Hurricane. Sissyfire I and Ia you can outdive etc. but that fat winged gremlin keeps up Osprey..if you see the tracers better it is easier to aim. And those 8 guns on RAF planes make mince meat of the 109 very quickly. Especially the MG tracers are very vague in the 109 and cannons too slow to hit anything so I would sure appreciate brighter tracers at times..

But anyways..these debates and discussions about alleged superiority of plane X or Y have been raging for ages and will never stop. Poor horse will never get rest from the eternal beating

First off, it's Wolverine, not Osprey

Second, if you try to follow a 109 in a dive for any length of time in a Hurricane you will very quickly find you have no control surfaces remaining on your aircraft as they've been torn off.

You're right about these arguments going no where, though. If anything it allows for a little venting before we carry on carrying on.

Here's something to think about though: Flying a Spitfire I/Ia or a Hurricane, your best option for taking on 109s is to meet them from above. Get altitude and descend on them. Okay, now a lot of people don't fly that high, so this isn't too hard to do. But the good 109 pilots fly higher. They fly in around 10k ft or above at LEAST. Okay, so fly higher. 15k and up. Now you're meeting the 109s on better terms.

But now consider how ATAG has their mission set up and how people fly it. Bombers fly in at 50ft off the deck. You can't even see those dots from 15k+ altitude. So you have to fly lower to protect your targets. Like 1,000 to 5,000 ft above the ground lower. This = 109 bait.

So our ONLY option to win those maps is for us to get bombers in the air and get the enemy targets ASAP. Only, we have the tin can Blenheim. I'm sure it has its strengths, but I've flown many escort missions and it's a VERY safe bet that if you go over there with 4 Blenheims, 3 of them will be destroyed by flak and 2 of them before they've even dropped bombs.

Blue pilots and builders keep telling me that the Red flak is just as dangerous as the Blue stuff, but I've since flown a 109 over red airfields to test it and I find that very hard to believe. I'm lucky if I get out alive after buzzing a blue target. One of our tactics is now to flood the target area with fighters to draw the flak so the bombers actually get through. It's frequently suicide and almost always you end up with severe damage.

So if you protect your targets, you get shot down.
If you go up and fight the 109s, you lose the map.
If you get people in Blenheims to attack targets, they rarely make it home and that's no fun (but quite often get the target - salute to you Bomber Boys, doing a thankless job. I'll escort you guys any day and any hour).

THAT'S what makes it frustrating.

One more thing to mention. Escorting bombers? Well, they're going to fly at 50ft off the deck too! So you have to be lower to keep eyes on them and intercept fighters attacking them. All THIS means is that the 109s flying at altitude get to pick. Bomber or fighter? It's an RAF buffet. The only option we have then is to successfully draw the 109s off of the bomber flight into a dog fight so that the bombers can continue on and get out of range. If you manage to shoot the 109 down in the process you either have him out numbered or he makes mistakes.

Here's my suggestion for getting rid of this blasted argument:

Remove bombers as flyable from ATAG.

Seriously. Make the AI bombers attack the ACTUAL targets. Fighters have to intercept and destroy them. AT ALTITUDE. This is the only way we're going to see people regularly having dog fights at 15k+. It also gives some meaning to intecepting those ai bombers instead of just padding your score.

And remove the targets in France. Set up them mission so that german bombers attack all the targets. If all the targets are destroyed, blue wins and the server resets. If targets remain, flash a 'Red survive day 1' message and then launch a second wave. Repeat. Red side tries to last as long as possible. This, to me, is FAR more a Battle of Britain scenario than the current mission. I would design this myself, but the scripting eludes me.

(And I use ATAG as the example since it's really the only show in town currently and it will take something big to change that)