1982 Falklands (Malvinas) War: a view from across the pond

[Bewolf]

Originally Posted by Gribbers

Dale farm occupants caused havoc, behaved like children to the media and defied the authorities, not being ignorant but they were treated in the UK as they would be in many countries all over the world...we only have to thank human progression that they weren't treated the same way they would have been in 1930/1940's Europe.

Many of them weren't paying council taxes, when the villagers and townies in surrounding areas were. There is an injustice that works both ways: I pay tax, and I've never had the misfortune to call the police, fire brigade or ambulance, or use they're services, and I live in what's considered to be a violent/dodgy part of London, I don't complain, like death, council taxes are inevitable, if you think you are exempt because you keep moving on, then keep moving on...these people were using all services and causing all three to be called out to their site before the disputes, and giving minimal amounts back (some of the occupants were blatantly contributing to society).

Completely off topic I know but not happy about linking this to the 1980's conflict. Irrelevant.

The fact is, the land didn't belong to them and they weren't paying tribute to the land...that's a global and historical principle.

That rant reminds me a lot of the gypsie talk in this country a couple decades ago. "Parasiten am Volkskörper" I think it was.

[Sternjaeger II]

Originally Posted by Gribbers

Dale farm occupants caused havoc, behaved like children to the media and defied the authorities, not being ignorant but they were treated in the UK as they would be in many countries all over the world...we only have to thank human progression that they weren't treated the same way they would have been in 1930/1940's Europe.

Many of them weren't paying council taxes, when the villagers and townies in surrounding areas were. There is an injustice that works both ways: I pay tax, and I've never had the misfortune to call the police, fire brigade or ambulance, or use they're services, and I live in what's considered to be a violent/dodgy part of London, I don't complain, like death, council taxes are inevitable, if you think you are exempt because you keep moving on, then keep moving on...these people were using all services and causing all three to be called out to their site before the disputes, and giving minimal amounts back (some of the occupants were blatantly contributing to society).

Completely off topic I know but not happy about linking this to the 1980's conflict. Irrelevant.

The fact is, the land didn't belong to them and they weren't paying tribute to the land...that's a global and historical principle.

u r missing the point. Nobody is questioning the fact that they were illegally squatting on a piece of land, the point is that it's kinda weird to go there after 10+ years and tell them to vacate the site, and in the meantime defending British settlers who illegitimately occupied the Falklands despite the Argentinian presence and declared sovereignty.

I can't probably explain this concept properly, maybe Bewolf can be of help?

[Gribbers]

Originally Posted by Bewolf

That rant reminds me a lot of the gypsie talk in this country a couple decades ago. "Parasiten am Volkskörper" I think it was.

Ha, it was a rant and very unlike me...and there are two sides to every story.

[Gribbers]

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

u r missing the point. Nobody is questioning the fact that they were illegally squatting on a piece of land, the point is that it's kinda weird to go there after 10+ years and tell them to vacate the site, and in the meantime defending British settlers who illegitimately occupied the Falklands despite the Argentinian presence and declared sovereignty.

I can't probably explain this concept properly, maybe Bewolf can be of help?

Not missing the point at all...the point is, the land wasn't theirs to begin with (by way of legal and recognised land register)...but as you say, don't know how to explain the concept either...or more to the point, know how to link it to baronWastelan's original post

The Spaniards occupied Falklands/Malvinas, as did the French (for some years), as did the Brits, as did the Argentinians...we all fought, we all fought some more, we all ran away and came back, we fought even more and we are where we are today...back to square one. As is the case with most modern disputes, all started centuries ago.

The sooner we break geographical boundaries, we forget our differences, we all make love (big melting pot style), and create a completely unified human race without religion [ducks and covers], racism and xenophobia we might be able to get to wherever we're supposed to be heading...maybe...

[Sternjaeger II]

Originally Posted by Gribbers

Not missing the point at all...the point is, the land wasn't theirs to begin with (by way of legal and recognised land register)...but as you say, don't know how to explain the concept either...or more to the point, know how to link it to baronWastelan's original post

The Spaniards occupied Falklands/Malvinas, as did the French (for some years), as did the Brits, as did the Argentinians...we all fought, we all fought some more, we all ran away and came back, we fought even more and we are where we are today...back to square one. As is the case with most modern disputes, all started centuries ago.

The sooner we break geographical boundaries, we forget our differences, we all make love (big melting pot style), and create a completely unified human race without religion [ducks and covers], racism and xenophobia we might be able to get to wherever we're supposed to be heading...maybe...

yeah, unfortunately it's still kind of a long way to go, but couldn't agree more!

[Bewolf]

There is a very simple rule I live by (despite how it may look when people discuss interntional politics).

There are only two kind of people, really. Cool people and a**holes (sorry mods, have to bring a point across). Maybe a third when it is about people you simply do not care about.
Anyways, you find those everywhere, in every religion, in every political spectrum, in every nation or any other kind of community but the most extreme ones. And I will always prefer the cool person over the other, no matter what other labels are stuck to him.

[trashcanman]

Please stop all this nonsense talk of Argentinian indigenous, peace loving people being forced out of the Falklands by British colonists at gun point.

Maybe we can discuss the way that the indigenous people of what is now Argentina were brutally robbed of their country?

The subject of Gibraltar was also raised.
I find it amusing that Ceuta and Melilla are never mentioned when discussing foreign enclaves in that part of the world

Some of my family were born and bred on the Falklands and one of my cousins flew helicopters during the 1982 conflict.
Their general view is that prior to the invasion by Argentina in 1982 the Falkland Islanders had good relations with Argentina and the best way of persuading them to give up their British status was to build bridges and persuade them that their future would be better.

As we all know, in 1982 the Argentinian government was more likely to torture and murder people that disagreed with them.

Having enjoyed freedom for so many hundreds of years, it is easy for Britons to forget that many countries have only recently arrived at that place, often paid for in British blood.

Yesterday I stood and watched the coffins of 6 young men who died trying to bring freedom to Afghanistan as they were driven to their final resting place.

Due to our history, we are an easy nation to throw insults at, especially by “internet heroes” to coin a phrase. Call me jingoistic if you wish. I am proud of most of what my country has done.

[fruitbat]

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

..well what's wrong with that? Or is it only the British take a valid one?

Again Stern, I ask the question for the third time. how many years is OK.

200 years in your book isn't OK, but 500 hundred is OK.

Where the line, 201, 301, 401, i'm curious of your rational.

Of course i expect you to duck for a third time.

Can't answer, I'm not surprised.

Oh, and there's nothing wrong with posting what you did, but if you expect all and sundry to believe intrinsically what you posted without examination then you are a fool, Just as if I'd of posted a doctored 'British' history, then i would be a fool.

As to the question in hand, its nothing to do with me or any of you unless you live there. Only the people who live there, opinions count. I couldn't give a rats ass if they wanted to go solo, but that's my opinion.

Of course if its not up to them, as a few in this thread have delightfully had a bash, i ask them,

Do we advocate ethnic cleansing these days.......



and to add,

I have friends from the first time around, i don't want anymore to have to go through that.

[baronWastelan]

Originally Posted by trashcanman

Please stop all this nonsense talk of Argentinian indigenous, peace loving people being forced out of the Falklands by British colonists at gun point.

Maybe we can discuss the way that the indigenous people of what is now Argentina were brutally robbed of their country?

The subject of Gibraltar was also raised.
I find it amusing that Ceuta and Melilla are never mentioned when discussing foreign enclaves in that part of the world

Some of my family were born and bred on the Falklands and one of my cousins flew helicopters during the 1982 conflict.
Their general view is that prior to the invasion by Argentina in 1982 the Falkland Islanders had good relations with Argentina and the best way of persuading them to give up their British status was to build bridges and persuade them that their future would be better.

As we all know, in 1982 the Argentinian government was more likely to torture and murder people that disagreed with them.

Having enjoyed freedom for so many hundreds of years, it is easy for Britons to forget that many countries have only recently arrived at that place, often paid for in British blood.

Yesterday I stood and watched the coffins of 6 young men who died trying to bring freedom to Afghanistan as they were driven to their final resting place.

Due to our history, we are an easy nation to throw insults at, especially by “internet heroes” to coin a phrase. Call me jingoistic if you wish. I am proud of most of what my country has done.

Would be interesting to know what trashcanman's participation in the Armed Forces of the UK is/was. Just curiosity on my part, having had personal experience of turning pride in one's country into action (which I've been told is the highest calling, but I have my own doubts).

[Sternjaeger II]

Originally Posted by trashcanman

Please stop all this nonsense talk of Argentinian indigenous, peace loving people being forced out of the Falklands by British colonists at gun point.

Maybe we can discuss the way that the indigenous people of what is now Argentina were brutally robbed of their country?

well it's no nonsense, but as you said they were a bunch of saints either.

Some of my family were born and bred on the Falklands and one of my cousins flew helicopters during the 1982 conflict.
Their general view is that prior to the invasion by Argentina in 1982 the Falkland Islanders had good relations with Argentina and the best way of persuading them to give up their British status was to build bridges and persuade them that their future would be better.

As we all know, in 1982 the Argentinian government was more likely to torture and murder people that disagreed with them.

I understand why you feel so strongly about this topic now. I don't think many of us here believe that Argentina would have been better than the UK, it's a matter of making history here, and being under the control of a questionable regime is as bad as squatting into an archipelago and then claim it as yours because British live there. Self determination can't be applied because the settlers weren't natives. Imagine if the scenario was opposite: if there was more of an Argentinian presence on the islands, who do you reckon they would want to belong to? The population of the Falkland is the result of the occupation, so they bear a bit of a biased point of view, don't you think? And to be honest I don't blame them, but I'd be smarter and declare my independence altogether, and make the best of the "newly" found natural resources.

Having enjoyed freedom for so many hundreds of years, it is easy for Britons to forget that many countries have only recently arrived at that place, often paid for in British blood.

Yesterday I stood and watched the coffins of 6 young men who died trying to bring freedom to Afghanistan as they were driven to their final resting place.

Due to our history, we are an easy nation to throw insults at, especially by “internet heroes” to coin a phrase. Call me jingoistic if you wish. I am proud of most of what my country has done.

well this is another topic altogether, but as much as I am sorry for all those poor brave guys who fight in Afghanistan, it still remains that we're allowing our Governments to send young guys to die for no reason at all. This distorted idea of exporting democracy to certain foreign countries is terribly arrogant and doesn't even take into account history: if 10 years of Russian invasion didn't change Afghanistan one bit, we really expect to make much of a difference? In 5 years time we'll all be out of there and they'll be back to square one, you can't change thousands-year traditions and heritage with western democracy, it doesn't compute.