Stability and Control characteristics of the Early Mark Spitfires

[Crumpp]

Being behind the airplane is a requirement to get in an accidental spin in the first place.

Just read the Pilot's Notes, it's all there

FACEPALM!!!!

From the first post in this thread AND the bugtracker....

Just some of the many references to the Longitudinal instability found in all of the early Mark Spitfires.

Spitfire Mk I Operating Notes, July 1940:

[Crumpp]

Pilots notes are just someone's opinion. They are not proof that prohibited manouvers were never performed. They are just a set of reccomendations. Good pilot's overcame their machines limitations on both sides.

Noted Winny...

In your opinion the Operating Notes are just for sissy's.

If you ever fly an airplane, be sure to tell that to the Aviation Authority, your instructor, and your insurance company.

Put it on your resume too. Maybe NASA or ESA will hire you as a test pilot.

Probably not, but you can dream.

[winny]

Originally Posted by Crumpp

See robtek's post, 41 Banks.

Exactly, in a normal dive, it would be very unusual for the pilot to be "behind the airplane". In an accidental spin, it is very likely the pilot will be "behind the airplane".

Goes back to aviation axiom, "Never Let an Airplane take you someplace your brain did not get to at least 5 minutes before."

Right BTB,

If you read the spin recovery procedures in the Operating Notes, it instructs the pilot to make a prolonged dive.

With the longitudinal instability, the aircraft would require more more velocity to buffer against over controlling the recovery and inducing a secondary stall.

In otherwords, the low stick forces and large elevator changes for very small stick inputs make the aircraft vulnerable to secondary stalling in a normal spin recovery sequence.

The high dive speed required to recover from a spin also make the aircraft vulnerable to exceeding the airframe limits by overcontrolling.

I would not be surprised to discover the Spitfire Mk I was cleared to spin after being fitted with an inertial elevator to correct the longitudinal instability.

Yawn, how's this relevant to CLoD?

You've made your point, the elevators on the spits should be sensitive.... News flash.. In CLoD they already are.

So what would you do to the Spit in game? What would you change? Bearing in mind that stick forces are irrelevant? After god knows how many posts I've yet to hear anything from you about how the MK I or II in game is behaving incorrectly.

So, what is wrong with the current FM in CLoD?

[winny]

Originally Posted by Crumpp

Noted Winny...

In your opinion the Operating Notes are just for sissy's.

If you ever fly an airplane, be sure to tell that to the Aviation Authority, your instructor, and your insurance company.

Put it on your resume too. Maybe NASA or ESA will hire you as a test pilot.

Probably not, but you can dream.

Nice reply, attack the poster not the point... And don't put words into my mouth. Where did I say the notes were for cissys?

I didn't. I pointed out that I have pilots accounts of all of the prohibited moves you have mentioned being performed. So the pilot's notes bear no relation to what sometimes happened. Or are you going to tell me that these people who were there were lying?

Again. What changes need to be made to the MK I or II in the game?

[robtek]

Originally Posted by 41Sqn_Banks

Indeed, spinning is one of the most dangerous man oeuvres. Combined with the fact that there is little to no benefit from a deliberate spin it's the simplest solution to prohibit it.

Btw I don't get why topic has so many pages. Just read the Pilot's Notes, it's all there:

- exceptional/remarkable light elevator response even at high speed, which is a good thing and a bad thing (risk of high speed stall and blackout/break up the aircraft if pilot is not carefully)
- instability in turns (elevator becomes lighter in turn)
- stall warning/buffeting/buzz (best turn rate is achieved slightly before buffeting)

Now let's look at the current FM and find out if this is represented.

Nice summarisation, that of course will be ignored by all who are looking for a dispute instead a solution.

[BTB]

Originally Posted by Crumpp

See robtek's post, 41 Banks.

Exactly, in a normal dive, it would be very unusual for the pilot to be "behind the airplane". In an accidental spin, it is very likely the pilot will be "behind the airplane".

Goes back to aviation axiom, "Never Let an Airplane take you someplace your brain did not get to at least 5 minutes before."

Right BTB,

If you read the spin recovery procedures in the Operating Notes, it instructs the pilot to make a prolonged dive.

With the longitudinal instability, the aircraft would require more more velocity to buffer against over controlling the recovery and inducing a secondary stall.

In otherwords, the low stick forces and large elevator changes for very small stick inputs make the aircraft vulnerable to secondary stalling in a normal spin recovery sequence.

The high dive speed required to recover from a spin also make the aircraft vulnerable to exceeding the airframe limits by overcontrolling.

I would not be surprised to discover the Spitfire Mk I was cleared to spin after being fitted with an inertial elevator to correct the longitudinal instability.

Look Crumpp, they said: " Allow the airplane to gather a speed of well over 150 mph, (thats not a high speed dive), before gradually easing out... " to reach this spead, thats your prolonged dive.
Recover the spinning, " there is no difficulty in recovering, provided the standard method is correclty used, i.e , full opposite rudder (maintained unter the spin stops) and stick slowly forward when recovery begins.... . " Thats what they (the Pilots) have learned since Flight school.

For all that you are trying to prove there exist advises.



Please do me a favour and make some guestflights in a Glider to understand this practically or in an aerobatic plane. Or look into some youtube videos to get an imagine how this looks like.
;D

EDit: just a few links

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rne-k...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZU14F...Vdk&playnext=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8Ilp...eature=related

[robtek]

Originally Posted by BTB

Look Crumpp, they said: " Allow the airplane to gather a speed of well over 150 mph, (thats not a high speed dive), before gradually easing out... " to reach this spead, thats your prolonged dive.
Recover the spinning, " there is no difficulty in recovering, provided the standard method is correclty used, i.e , full opposite rudder (maintained unter the spin stops) and stick slowly forward when recovery begins.... . " Thats what they (the Pilots) have learned since Flight school.

For all that you are trying to prove there exist advises.



Please do me a favour and make some guestflights in a Glider to understand this practically or in an aerobatic plane. Or look into some youtube videos to get an imagine how this looks like.
;D

BTB, to be so condescending on such thin ice, ts ts ts.

150 mph, in a vertikal dive, with a GRADUALLY recovery, surely you'll reach a pretty high velocity before leveling out, accelerating all the time.

That is not a > 500 kg glider but a 3 ton machine with a not that much larger front surface.

[BTB]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PBes98c8RSA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4Xbk...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kn3Rf...feature=relmfu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_J9N8...eature=related

[41Sqn_Banks]

Originally Posted by robtek

BTB, to be so condescending on such thin ice, ts ts ts.

150 mph, in a vertikal dive, with a GRADUALLY recovery, surely you'll reach a pretty high velocity before leveling out, accelerating all the time.

That is not a > 500 kg glider but a 3 ton machine with a not that much larger front surface.

Mass doesn't matter in vertical acceleration*. The speed doesn't instantly increase from below 150mph (second stall) to above x mph (aircraft breakup).

[41Sqn_Banks]

Again I don't get the discussion. All source state that spin recovery is pretty standard for Spitfire. The only "problem" is the light elevator/relative instability, which makes precise control more difficult than in other aircraft, but this is only a issue if the pilot is not used to the aircraft.
It's like driving a car with a sensitive clutch. You must be careful on the first day, but after a week it won't make a difference and you make use of the benefits.