Fantastic FW 190 video

[robtek]

Wasn't that D-13 missing the Kommandogeraet?
So the engine is only running on emergency-default-settings and not save to fly.

[Sternjaeger II]

Originally Posted by Bewolf

Just my very personal opinion, but those birds were made to fly, not to roll around on the ground. Rare or not, in a museum a replica does just as fine.

I have the same approach, you know that, but there's a bit of a slipper slope here..
In order to guarantee safe operation of the machine, you need to guarantee for structural integrity and robustness. The fact that the plane's structure and assembly are the same of 60 years ago doesn't guarantee for this integrity, and as you know you need to be able to check for stuff like defoliation and micro cracks on structural parts (spar, ribs, mono-coque, engine mounts etc..). The plane as it is could fly ONLY because of the American experimental category, but this doesn't mean that the insurance would take it for good: they send out their experts, assess the situation and report to their company, who would then shell out a price. If memory serves the first estimate was in the region of several million dollars (!!!), simply because there were no guarantees of a thorough investigation of the airframe (which can be done only by disassembly/dismantling). The owner didn't wanna hear about losing the fame of his plane being the most genuine, original one in the world in "airworthy" conditions, so they came to a standstill.
As a pilot, no matter what guarantees I'm given, I wouldn't be happy to fly something that is 60 years old and hasn't been stripped down and checked, especially on such a high performance machine with poor literacy on the subject in terms of in flight behaviour.

The bottom line is: would you strip down a unique machine of its original parts in order to make it airworthy (with all the risks it would come with, and losing original components), or would you preserve it in its original, stock conditions just because of its sheer value?

[Sternjaeger II]

Originally Posted by robtek

Wasn't that D-13 missing the Kommandogeraet?
So the engine is only running on emergency-default-settings and not save to fly.

I'm not sure about this, and even if it was, the owner is surely not someone short of cash, who could buy one or even have it made for scratch if need be.

[Bewolf]

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

I have the same approach, you know that, but there's a bit of a slipper slope here..
In order to guarantee safe operation of the machine, you need to guarantee for structural integrity and robustness. The fact that the plane's structure and assembly are the same of 60 years ago doesn't guarantee for this integrity, and as you know you need to be able to check for stuff like defoliation and micro cracks on structural parts (spar, ribs, mono-coque, engine mounts etc..). The plane as it is could fly ONLY because of the American experimental category, but this doesn't mean that the insurance would take it for good: they send out their experts, assess the situation and report to their company, who would then shell out a price. If memory serves the first estimate was in the region of several million dollars (!!!), simply because there were no guarantees of a thorough investigation of the airframe (which can be done only by disassembly/dismantling). The owner didn't wanna hear about losing the fame of his plane being the most genuine, original one in the world in "airworthy" conditions, so they came to a standstill.
As a pilot, no matter what guarantees I'm given, I wouldn't be happy to fly something that is 60 years old and hasn't been stripped down and checked, especially on such a high performance machine with poor literacy on the subject in terms of in flight behaviour.

The bottom line is: would you strip down a unique machine of its original parts in order to make it airworthy (with all the risks it would come with, and losing original components), or would you preserve it in its original, stock conditions just because of its sheer value?

In regards to your question.....yes, I definitely would. I mean you are right, safety comes first here, everything else would be plain stupid, both in regards to the pilot and the aircraft itself.
But let's just say active aircraft require maintance and that also includes the replacement of parts on a regular basis. Now sure, you can fetishize those original parts, but imho, that just results in a machine that is comparable to a stuffed pet animal. A rather sad and undignified sight.

But that is purely on a principle basis, those guys at the FHC did a great job getting the D13 in the state she is now in the first place. Better then nothing at all.

Originally Posted by Bewolf

In regards to your question.....yes, I definitely would. I mean you are right, safety comes first here, everything else would be plain stupid, both in regards to the pilot and the aircraft itself.
But let's just say active aircraft require maintance and that also includes the replacement of parts on a regular basis. Now sure, you can fetishize those original parts, but imho, that just results in a machine that is comparable to a stuffed pet animal. A rather sad and undignified sight.

But that is purely on a principle basis, those guys at the FHC did a great job getting the D13 in the state she is now in the first place. Better then nothing at all.

I'm sorry man, but Americans are good at painting aircrafts well, and a fresh paintjob doesn't mean that what's under it is not bogus.

There isn't much work done on the D13, and when they did the unveiling with engine startup it took them FOREVER to crank it up. Considering how rare that engine is, and how the components are hard to get hold of/remake, I wouldn't trust that engine to be flown as it is. Let's not forget that the D13 was a very late plane, and the scarcity of quality material could have jeopardised the quality of the plane itself.

I have seen 4 T-6s imported from the States so far, and they ALL had the same corrosion problems: machines that are sturdy by their very design, which look mint (because of a fresh paintjob), but when you get in the fuselage to get a glimpse of how things are inside... mamma mia...

The T-6 itself had a safety issue some years ago with the L joints that attach the wings to the wingroot: in all the planes that I've seen so far imported from the US there was this issue.

Because of the broad net of the experimental category, many things are underestimated unfortunately.

I love the plane, but the conditions for a safe flying would mean compromising its originality. If you said "let's make a replica faithful to the original and using the original as a model" then I'd totally agree, but risking to fly this machine at the current status is unthinkable.

[Codex]

I can not wait for CoD to have the FW's.

[Bewolf]

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger

I'm sorry man, but Americans are good at painting aircrafts well, and a fresh paintjob doesn't mean that what's under it is not bogus.

There isn't much work done on the D13, and when they did the unveiling with engine startup it took them FOREVER to crank it up. Considering how rare that engine is, and how the components are hard to get hold of/remake, I wouldn't trust that engine to be flown as it is. Let's not forget that the D13 was a very late plane, and the scarcity of quality material could have jeopardised the quality of the plane itself.

I have seen 4 T-6s imported from the States so far, and they ALL had the same corrosion problems: machines that are sturdy by their very design, which look mint (because of a fresh paintjob), but when you get in the fuselage to get a glimpse of how things are inside... mamma mia...

The T-6 itself had a safety issue some years ago with the L joints that attach the wings to the wingroot: in all the planes that I've seen so far imported from the US there was this issue.

Because of the broad net of the experimental category, many things are underestimated unfortunately.

I love the plane, but the conditions for a safe flying would mean compromising its originality. If you said "let's make a replica faithful to the original and using the original as a model" then I'd totally agree, but risking to fly this machine at the current status is unthinkable.

hm? I thought we already clared up that for the D13 to fly it requires the replacement of parts, safety comes first?
That said, FHC did a fine job in getting other aircraft into the air, so I'd say there is no lack of capability there.

[Sternjaeger II]

Originally Posted by Bewolf

hm? I thought we already clared up that for the D13 to fly it requires the replacement of parts, safety comes first?
That said, FHC did a fine job in getting other aircraft into the air, so I'd say there is no lack of capability there.

yep, so are you ready to modify and alter an original, pristine machine to make it fly? I think it would be a bad, bad idea. If you wanna tinker around with a spit or a mustang, fine, but unique stuff needs to be preserved for what it is, not put at potential risk of being lost forever.

There's a thousand things that could go wrong on that machine, and even a bent undercarriage or a damaged wingtip would be a real bummer.

[Bewolf]

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

yep, so are you ready to modify and alter an original, pristine machine to make it fly? I think it would be a bad, bad idea. If you wanna tinker around with a spit or a mustang, fine, but unique stuff needs to be preserved for what it is, not put at potential risk of being lost forever.

There's a thousand things that could go wrong on that machine, and even a bent undercarriage or a damaged wingtip would be a real bummer.

As I said before:

In regards to your question.....yes, I definitely would....
...But let's just say active aircraft require maintance and that also includes the replacement of parts on a regular basis. Now sure, you can fetishize those original parts, but imho, that just results in a machine that is comparable to a stuffed pet animal. A rather sad and undignified sight.

As long as it just sits around to be stared at, it really does not matter what is under the hood as people won't see it anyways. For a museum a replica does just as fine. Flying comes with a risk, but it is the only way to actually get a real impression of a machine that was made for solely for this, flying. But that is just my opinion.

[drewpee]

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

I have the same approach, you know that, but there's a bit of a slipper slope here..
In order to guarantee safe operation of the machine, you need to guarantee for structural integrity and robustness. The fact that the plane's structure and assembly are the same of 60 years ago doesn't guarantee for this integrity, and as you know you need to be able to check for stuff like defoliation and micro cracks on structural parts (spar, ribs, mono-coque, engine mounts etc..). The plane as it is could fly ONLY because of the American experimental category, but this doesn't mean that the insurance would take it for good: they send out their experts, assess the situation and report to their company, who would then shell out a price. If memory serves the first estimate was in the region of several million dollars (!!!), simply because there were no guarantees of a thorough investigation of the airframe (which can be done only by disassembly/dismantling). The owner didn't wanna hear about losing the fame of his plane being the most genuine, original one in the world in "airworthy" conditions, so they came to a standstill.
As a pilot, no matter what guarantees I'm given, I wouldn't be happy to fly something that is 60 years old and hasn't been stripped down and checked, especially on such a high performance machine with poor literacy on the subject in terms of in flight behaviour.

The bottom line is: would you strip down a unique machine of its original parts in order to make it airworthy (with all the risks it would come with, and losing original components), or would you preserve it in its original, stock conditions just because of its sheer value?

Totally agree. Keeping vintage AC in the sky as long as possible is great but 60+ year old parts will eventually fail. Only way to keep them flying is to continually replace the with non genuine parts. At some stage they will no longer be genuine.
I would personally give my left nut to be able to see as many original vintage combat AC in museums. I'd give my right nut to fly replicas.