the raw numbers

[Furio]

I can’t dispute how historians determined that approximately 15.000 German aircraft were lost on Eastern Front. Counting only the major types, Luftwaffe fielded no less than 90.000 planes during the war.
The vast majority was obviously destroyed or damaged beyond repair in air combat or on the ground, or captured by advancing ground forces. A sizable part was certainly lost in non-combat related accidents, while really few, if any, planes managed to reach the end of their service life.
Guessing numbers is obviously difficult, but some estimates can reasonably be reached.
Counting as 20% of total the non combat-related losses, Luftwaffe lost at least 70.000 aircraft. The majority of those losses was on the Eastern Front. If I’m not grossly wrong, that number should be not lower than 40.000.

[rakinroll]

Originally Posted by Furio

I can’t dispute how historians determined that approximately 15.000 German aircraft were lost on Eastern Front. Counting only the major types, Luftwaffe fielded no less than 90.000 planes during the war.
The vast majority was obviously destroyed or damaged beyond repair in air combat or on the ground, or captured by advancing ground forces. A sizable part was certainly lost in non-combat related accidents, while really few, if any, planes managed to reach the end of their service life.
Guessing numbers is obviously difficult, but some estimates can reasonably be reached.
Counting as 20% of total the non combat-related losses, Luftwaffe lost at least 70.000 aircraft. The majority of those losses was on the Eastern Front. If I’m not grossly wrong, that number should be not lower than 40.000.

Pfff...

[Furio]

Originally Posted by rakinroll

Pfff...

Sure. Pfff is the correct number.

[JoeA]

Originally Posted by Furio

I can’t dispute how historians determined that approximately 15.000 German aircraft were lost on Eastern Front. Counting only the major types, Luftwaffe fielded no less than 90.000 planes during the war.
The vast majority was obviously destroyed or damaged beyond repair in air combat or on the ground, or captured by advancing ground forces. A sizable part was certainly lost in non-combat related accidents, while really few, if any, planes managed to reach the end of their service life.
Guessing numbers is obviously difficult, but some estimates can reasonably be reached.
Counting as 20% of total the non combat-related losses, Luftwaffe lost at least 70.000 aircraft. The majority of those losses was on the Eastern Front. If I’m not grossly wrong, that number should be not lower than 40.000.

I am not sure that's correct what are your sources for the claim?

[Furio]

I’m not sure either. It’s only my opinion, but my reasoning is simple.
Main German bombers, He 111H, Do 217, Ju 87 and Ju 88, roughly 25.000 built.
Main German transport (Ju 52) roughly 5.000 built.
Main German fighters (Bf 109 e 110, Me 410, Fw 190) more than 60.000.
Total of these types built: 90.000.
Almost all of them were lost by war’s end, when Eastern Front reached Berlin, and Russians seized what remained of Luftwaffe.
I consider as combat-related losses aircraft destroyed or damaged beyond repair in air combat, by A.A. fire, or on the ground by strafing and bombing. I consider as combat-related losses also aircrafts captured by advancing ground forces.
This leaves out only aircraft lost in non-combat related accidents, or that reached end of service life. I guessed this number at 20% of total aircraft losses (18.000). This number seems reasonable to me, but obviously I can be wrong.
I guessed also that Luftwaffe suffered “more than half” of its losses on Eastern Front. I’ve read that the actual ratio was 1.7 times of Western Front losses, but even considering a lower percentage, say 60%, the end number is near 43.200.
And that’s it.

[Thunderbolt56]

There have been times I try to put the Eastern Front into perspective for people that are, say, less in-the-know. What i usually do is tell them a couple things that are fact and easily found.

1. 80% of all German ground casualties in WWII were on the Eastern Front.

2. The largest, bloodiest, most costly battle (in human life) in the history of mankind was the Battle for Stalingrad.

[Insuber]

Originally Posted by Thunderbolt56

2. The largest, bloodiest, most costly battle (in human life) in the history of mankind was the Battle for Stalingrad.

Nope, it was the battle for Moscow. Until recently the Russian official losses of this battle were grossly underestimated, both for simple ignorance and to preserve the reputation of some top brass as Zhukov. Hundreds of thousand men thrown in the furnace, sometimes without weapons.

"The Battle for Moscow was the biggest battle of World War II - indeed of all time. The combined losses amounted to 2.5 million men - 2 million on he Russian side. Even Stalingrad involved half as many troops and less than half as many losses." The Greatest Battle, the Fight for Moscow 1941-42, Andrew Nagorski, Aurum, 8.89 £.

Regards,
Insuber

[wannabetheace]

try to read my post if u don't mind reading long posts ^^.

[Igo kyu]

Originally Posted by Furio

The majority of those losses was on the Eastern Front.

I think that's quite possibly mistaken.

It is apparently a fact that most of the German high scoring aces made those scores in the east. The scores were overstated probably, but the RAF overscored too, and it's probably not disproportionate, allegedly. Again allegedly the Germans found the east to be a target rich environment, and most of those targets undertrained, and under performing.

Stalin was prone to throwing numbers at his enemies when he couldn't match them in quality, in the air as on the ground. I've read that many I16s were sent into battle with no sights except markings painted on the windscreen.

German losses in the west were higher per allied aircraft, because of superior western allied training and aircraft. Even so, the "rodeo"s and "circus"es of 1942 and 1943 were apparently not profitable for the RAF and USAAF in hindsight, though they seemed so at the time due to overclaiming.

There probably were figures, there seem to be figures for almost everything in the west, the nazis were obsessive about documentation. If, as I suspect, there are numbers for the western front, it may be necessary to find those, and subtract them from the total to get a figure for the east, which I think there is a probability will turn out to be less than half.

The war wasn't a game that had to be fair or people wouldn't play, if they "didn't play" they would probably die anyway, so they did the best they could, even if the odds were hugely against them, because they had no better option.

The "blinding sun" campaign for the USSR isn't much fun, but it is probably as accurate a rendering of the actual eastern front as is possible without making it not a playable game at all.

Originally Posted by Thunderbolt56

There have been times I try to put the Eastern Front into perspective for people that are, say, less in-the-know. What i usually do is tell them a couple things that are fact and easily found.

1. 80% of all German ground casualties in WWII were on the Eastern Front.

2. The largest, bloodiest, most costly battle (in human life) in the history of mankind was the Battle for Stalingrad.

I don't doubt any of that is true at all. The Germans had it much easier in the air.

[Furio]

Originally Posted by Igo kyu

I think that's quite possibly mistaken.

German losses in the west were higher per allied aircraft, because of superior western allied training and aircraft.

As it seems, Igo Kyu, we are comparing more feelings than actual number, but...
I wouldn’t say that Eastern front was so easy for Luftwaffe. According to German archives, cited by Yefim Gordon, Luftwaffe lost 3.827 aircraft during the first six month of war, the most favorable period for Germany. In the same period, VVS lost more than 20.000, but it was the least favorable period for Russia.
Possibly, you’re right about more losses in West than in East, but there are numbers that makes one think twice. Citing again Gordon, VVS lost one aircraft per 32 sorties in 1941, 1 per 72 in 1943 and 1 per 165 in 1945. Luftwaffe lost 1 per 25,5 in 1942, 1 per 22,5 in 1943 and 1 per 11 in the last months of war.