SOW: your thoughts on clickable cockpits and realistic start-up

[TX-EcoDragon]

For me a realistic cockpit interface is a must. IL-2 was the first and hopefully last sim I'll use without clickable cockpits.

I still don't understand why this debate continues. No other developer seems to find this a challenge to model, especially in aircraft as simple as those in WWII, and most all flight sim pilots with experience outside the rather limited world of IL-2 appreciate the need for a cockpit interface that is more than just a facade. Those that want to map everything to their joystick can do so (despite the fact that's not at all realistic), as those who are fine having no idea what position the radiator is without cycling the position and looking at the HUD, or trying to cycle the mags with the keyboard (I usually just get the map popping up instead) can keep on doing it!

If Oleg only polls those that only fly IL-2, the results will clearly not be representative of the actual stance of the flight sim community at large, and certainly real world pilots who try the sims . . .this isn't conjecture, 100% of the time I've demonstrated IL-2 to other pilots, this is one of their first gripes, as it was mine! In addition to the gamers, Oleg SHOULD also care about luring the more serious simmers and pilots to BOB:SOW. . .many of these same folks dismiss IL-2 as little more than a combat game without a second thought as it is, and this is one of the reasons.

I'll still buy SOW for the SU-26 if for nothing else, but I sure do expect more than what is provided in IL-2 with respect to flight physics, CEM and cockpit interface.

[Codex]

Originally Posted by TX-EcoDragon

For me a realistic cockpit interface is a must. IL-2 was the first and hopefully last sim I'll use without clickable cockpits.

I still don't understand why this debate continues. No other developer seems to find this a challenge to model, especially in aircraft as simple as those in WWII, and most all flight sim pilots with experience outside the rather limited world of IL-2 appreciate the need for a cockpit interface that is more than just a facade. Those that want to map everything to their joystick can do so (despite the fact that's not at all realistic), as those who are fine having no idea what position the radiator is without cycling the position and looking at the HUD, or trying cycle the mags with the keyboard (I usually just get the map popping up instead) can keep on doing it!

If Oleg only polls those that only fly IL-2, the results will clearly not be representative of the actual stance of the flight sim community at large, and certainly real world pilot. In addition to the gamers, Oleg SHOULD also care about luring the more serious simmers and pilots to BOB:SOW. . .many of these same folks dismiss IL-2 as little more than a combat game without a second thought as it is, and this is one of the reasons.

I'll still buy SOW for the SU-26 if for nothing else, but I sure do expect more than what is provided in IL-2 with respect to flight physics, CEM and cockpit interface.

Spot on

[GOZR]

Yes EcoDragon is right about this and i feel the same way.

Anything close to what DCS team did with "Black Shark" system management is a good start .

[Rama]

Since this is an oppinion thread, I will give mine.

I don't care about clickable pits as long I'm not obliged to use them (as long there's no interference with the views and no other losses).
That's said, I don't see the need of it (except to satisfy some peoples that "think" it's more realistic)... good for them if they feel satisfied (but not to the detriment of others)

Originally Posted by TX-EcoDragon

and most all flight sim pilots with experience outside the rather limited world of IL-2 appreciate the need for a cockpit interface that is more than just a facade.

Sorry, but that's quite wrong. I know many RL pilots (both civilian, amateurs or pro and military) who play with IL2, and also with FSX, and who don't care and don't use clickable cockpits.
I understand that some do... but it's far to be generalizes as you pretend.

Those that want to map everything to their joystick can do so (despite the fact that's not at all realistic)

That's not less realistic than using the mouse to select and click a button or a lever on the pit...
I agree that hud messages are immersion killers, but they can be removed without clickable pits... as long the corresponding virtual pit switch or lever or indicator is correctly animated and displayed.
when piloting a plane in RL, I never search and click a button with a mouse... most of the time I don't even look at it... and that's the case for most of the pilots, even more when they are experienced. the pilot as to use all is attention to outside view and instrument, and this is even more important (especially for outside view) for military pilots.
So using buttons on HOTAS, even if the buttons are not on the "right place" (except for pit builders), when it becomes instinctive, is certainly closer to "reality" than looking at the button position, moving the mouse on the button and clicking.

If you want clickeable pits for your satisfaction, I can understand that... and as I said earlier, I have no problems for clickable pit lovers to be satisfied... but please don't justify them with "realism". It's a nonsense and IMHO destroy your argumentation so don't help you to obtain what you want.

[jasonbirder]

Right...we know that many people don't like the idea of a clickpit INTERFACE but thats not important...any clickable input would have a keyboard shortcut and be mapable anyway...
The point is do people want the FUNCTIONALITY that it would bring?
IE realistic, non-generic, high workload engine, fuel and flight systems to monitor and manage (ideally with corresponding problems/failures etc) alongside a realistic navigation and communication environment...
I guess what we are asking for is a realistic world war 2 combat flight SIMULATOR
And the like/dislike discussion of the relative merits of the clickpit interface is taking away from that...

[JVM]

Originally Posted by jasonbirder

IE realistic, non-generic, high workload engine, fuel and flight systems to monitor and manage (ideally with corresponding problems/failures etc) alongside a realistic navigation and communication environment...
I guess what we are asking for is a realistic world war 2 combat flight SIMULATOR

So it is not really about clickable cockpit at all, but really CEM...However one of the issues is: if you make a mistake in your CEM leading you to, say, an engine failure enroute to the mission target, how fun will it be to have to crash-land/bail out without having done nothing? At a minimum you would need to have instantly the choice to join as an observer (or actor if you can replace an AI player) in another aircraft of the mission, wouldn't you?

Besides, for for a TrackIR user a good implementation of a kind of clickable cockpit would be the ability to assign a "cockpit" button on either stick or throttle (or whatever!): when you look with the trackIR in the cockpit, if the button is pressed the control/button in the focal point of the view is (kind of) highlighted; when you release the button, the control changes states with the required animation and configuration.
The advantage here is you would have nearly the same instantaneity as if you where activating said control with your finger without loosing your time and awareness trying to point it with a mouse...
Drawback is the need for a TrackIR (or equivalent device) and it would not work very well with "analog" controls (like trims for instance) which are usually controlled by feeling/evaluating the induced effect...

JV

[SlipBall]

Originally Posted by TX-EcoDragon

For me a realistic cockpit interface is a must. IL-2 was the first and hopefully last sim I'll use without clickable cockpits.

I still don't understand why this debate continues. No other developer seems to find this a challenge to model, especially in aircraft as simple as those in WWII, and most all flight sim pilots with experience outside the rather limited world of IL-2 appreciate the need for a cockpit interface that is more than just a facade. Those that want to map everything to their joystick can do so (despite the fact that's not at all realistic), as those who are fine having no idea what position the radiator is without cycling the position and looking at the HUD, or trying to cycle the mags with the keyboard (I usually just get the map popping up instead) can keep on doing it!

If Oleg only polls those that only fly IL-2, the results will clearly not be representative of the actual stance of the flight sim community at large, and certainly real world pilots who try the sims . . .this isn't conjecture, 100% of the time I've demonstrated IL-2 to other pilots, this is one of their first gripes, as it was mine! In addition to the gamers, Oleg SHOULD also care about luring the more serious simmers and pilots to BOB:SOW. . .many of these same folks dismiss IL-2 as little more than a combat game without a second thought as it is, and this is one of the reasons.

I'll still buy SOW for the SU-26 if for nothing else, but I sure do expect more than what is provided in IL-2 with respect to flight physics, CEM and cockpit interface.

I agree with all that you say here!...and I would think it very odd, if SOW is void of the opportunity to interface as you say. Everytime that I think about this subject. I shake my head in disbelief that Oleg cannot see the importance of this. I would think attracting the same type of people who flocked to MSFS looking to opperate and manage an aircraft cockpit, would be a priority of his. Surely the popularity of MSFS was due to the cockpit interface, certainly NOT the FM or grafhics, this should be very apparent to 1C. Him relying on a ancient poll result, limited to those who had IL-2, is in my opinion a big mistake. Just the addition of the SU-26, if offered as a "by the book" aircraft. I think would add thousands of new pilot's just looking for the challenge of flying that one aircraft. Off-line or on-line, in the many air racing/stunt/formation rooms that would appear. I so much want SOW to be more of a state of the art, WW2 prop plane simulator, and less of a arcade type game. He is the only one that could create such a product, and have it near perfect in all respects...I am dreaming of what could be, would be a shame to waste more years waiting for such a product, that may never develope.

[Rama]

Originally Posted by SlipBall

Off-line or on-line, in the many air racing/stunt/formation rooms that would appear.

You must be kidding there...
air racing/stunt/formation flying is allready well practised on IL2, Lockon, both without clickable pits. have you heard about FAMA?
And even with clickable pits, you can't do air racing/stunt/formation flying while loosing time looking into your virtual pit, moving the mouse and clicking... you need fast and accurate on-time reactions. Even the teams that try to practice formation flying with MSFS (very difficult because of the laggy netcode) dont "click" their clickpits...

[SlipBall]

Originally Posted by Rama

You must be kidding there...
air racing/stunt/formation flying is allready well practised on IL2, Lockon, both without clickable pits. have you heard about FAMA?
And even with clickable pits, you can't do air racing/stunt/formation flying while loosing time looking into your virtual pit, moving the mouse and clicking... you need fast and accurate on-time reactions. Even the teams that try to practice formation flying with MSFS (very difficult because of the laggy netcode) dont "click" their clickpits...

If you would read my post you would find that I do not favor using the mouse. The new rooms that I spoke of, would develope from the thousands of new serious pilots who enjoy MSFS, and do not fly IL-2. The cocpit interface would be the draw for them, to come fly SOW.

[Abbeville-Boy]

Originally Posted by Rama

you need fast and accurate on-time reactions. Even the teams that try to practice formation flying with MSFS (very difficult because of the laggy netcode) dont "click" their clickpits...

mapped keys is good then no mouse is needed

msfs laggy netcode, good reason for them to come to fly sow
but they only come if aircraft not for kids like il2 is
su26 would be hard to ignore for them if it is a like real pit