Tales from online; ignorance of energy....

[IceFire]

Originally Posted by Jumoschwanz

I guess I should have specified I fly on hard settings servers where there is no way to know where other aircraft are on the server, just as in WWII. I am not interested in gaming on easy servers where the players scroll through outside views and have icons.....it means about the same as someone bragging about how well they do on Pac-Man.


As for K_Freddie's escape from the LA-7s, good job because they are certainly faster than a 190A. I had a similar experience once, only managing to escape because I watched my engine temperature and the pilot of an La5fn did not and ruined his engine after chasing me for quite a while.

Although the La- series of Russian fighters are generally as fast or faster than their contemporary 190A opponents, they do have fragile engines and if their pilot does not know how to manage his Energy or his engine then the full potential of their aircraft will be wasted.

In earlier patches of IL2 the Russian aircraft seemed to come apart in high speed dives easier than they do in the last few patches. Back in the day I watched more than a few La- or other Russian fighter hit the ground behind me while trying to keep up with my 109 or 190 in a dive. It was always good for a chuckle.

They still do... but the effect is a little more nuanced across the lines. The Yak-9U for example had a better dive limit than the early Yak-9s. The La-7 is a bit better if I remember right than the early La-5. I can tell you that the Yak-7 falls apart at a pretty low dive speed... maybe even too low. You can't dive that thing at all!

[MaxGunz]

I seem to recall accounts from the Russian Aces about which planes could not chase or run from from Bf109's and in another case a Bf109 pilot that only managed to get out of a dive through extremely careful use of trim.

From what Gunther Rall who flew German and captured US planes wrote, it should be the P-51 and P-47 that are the highspeed dive champions. I dunno if he ever flew a P-39.

After running my own tests I saw how top end in a dive accounts for so many accounts I've read. But still, no one just dives away from bullets with only a 200m head start and a straight path.

[IceFire]

Originally Posted by MaxGunz

I seem to recall accounts from the Russian Aces about which planes could not chase or run from from Bf109's and in another case a Bf109 pilot that only managed to get out of a dive through extremely careful use of trim.

From what Gunther Rall who flew German and captured US planes wrote, it should be the P-51 and P-47 that are the highspeed dive champions. I dunno if he ever flew a P-39.

After running my own tests I saw how top end in a dive accounts for so many accounts I've read. But still, no one just dives away from bullets with only a 200m head start and a straight path.

That's the biggest problem I think... many have read about how superior X plane is in a dive and they use it at the last moment in a desperation move. And they get shot down because no matter how much faster the other plane is in a dive... it won't get you out of gun range if they are already chewing on your tail with their propeller.

[Laurwin]

Originally Posted by MaxGunz

I seem to recall accounts from the Russian Aces about which planes could not chase or run from from Bf109's and in another case a Bf109 pilot that only managed to get out of a dive through extremely careful use of trim.

From what Gunther Rall who flew German and captured US planes wrote, it should be the P-51 and P-47 that are the highspeed dive champions. I dunno if he ever flew a P-39.

After running my own tests I saw how top end in a dive accounts for so many accounts I've read. But still, no one just dives away from bullets with only a 200m head start and a straight path.

This is true and Icefire is also right in his last post there...

I remember one encounter online in full real. I was flying mustang in 1943 against fw190A.

After a some manouvering, I got onto fw's six.

Focke wulf simply thought he could dive away from me and he started diving quite rapidly.

I immediately dived after him, slowly getting closer to gun range

I was getting closer, then the focke wulf went into even deeper and deeper dive

After maybe 2km of diving, the ocean level was getting awfully close to the focke wulf. He crashed into the ocean like a comet or something

Focke wulf didn't respect mustang's better speed and dive capability, and he paid the price.

(I didn't get the kill in game server rules, but it was manouver kill in real life rules)

[MaxGunz]

The acceleration, by the numbers, just isn't that great. Those planes accelerate at far less than 1G in addition to gravity that is only 1G when you go straight down. Even if your plane does accelerate faster than the other, the major factor in both is gravity which is the same for both. The pull-away isn't one stopped and the other dropped which would still allow for shots.

You need some initial angular separation or a surprise maneuver to create that like Robert S. Johnson had done in his mock 'combat' with the Spit. He out-rolled the Spit and broke, by the time Spit pilot got back on his trail he had distance and speed to pull a reversal while the Spit pilot still hadn't figured out what was happening let alone be ready to respond.

If you want to start a dive real fast, roll over and use your lift as it is the most powerful force you command in a WWII fighter. If you have the speed to pull 6G's then your biggest problem may be avoiding lawn darting. A follower that doesn't roll with you will overshoot and never catch up if you manage to not crash. Just hope you don't get shot to bits in the setup!

[Laurwin]

Originally Posted by MaxGunz

The acceleration, by the numbers, just isn't that great. Those planes accelerate at far less than 1G in addition to gravity that is only 1G when you go straight down. Even if your plane does accelerate faster than the other, the major factor in both is gravity which is the same for both. The pull-away isn't one stopped and the other dropped which would still allow for shots.

You need some initial angular separation or a surprise maneuver to create that like Robert S. Johnson had done in his mock 'combat' with the Spit. He out-rolled the Spit and broke, by the time Spit pilot got back on his trail he had distance and speed to pull a reversal while the Spit pilot still hadn't figured out what was happening let alone be ready to respond.

If you want to start a dive real fast, roll over and use your lift as it is the most powerful force you command in a WWII fighter. If you have the speed to pull 6G's then your biggest problem may be avoiding lawn darting. A follower that doesn't roll with you will overshoot and never catch up if you manage to not crash. Just hope you don't get shot to bits in the setup!

never say never

escaping from high altitude with diving, and keeping escapping will bleed all your stored energy (potential energy altitude) for sure (to drag etc...)

your speed will slow down into your max speed level flying. (at the correct altitude)

in the end you rely on losing sight of him and ending the chase. This is not even defeating your enemy actually.

enemy has now control of dominating altitude and place of airspace, the enemy has defeated you in fact.

It does work in your spitfire vs thunderbolt example though! That can be admitted readily.

[MaxGunz]

Originally Posted by Laurwin

never say never

escaping from high altitude with diving, and keeping escapping will bleed all your stored energy (potential energy altitude) for sure (to drag etc...)

your speed will slow down into your max speed level flying. (at the correct altitude)

in the end you rely on losing sight of him and ending the chase. This is not even defeating your enemy actually.

enemy has now control of dominating altitude and place of airspace, the enemy has defeated you in fact.

It does work in your spitfire vs thunderbolt example though! That can be admitted readily.

When you clip words out of context and slap on "never say never", all I can say is that the context provided a big qualifier that you seem to have missed, "A follower that doesn't roll with you will overshoot".
Perhaps I should have added "unless you're a clueless dweeb and jerk around perhaps with your flaps down after you get low and slow" to the end.
In the original, the enemy has lost sight of you. At no point do you rely on losing sight of the enemy though keeping him in view may be impossible at some point if you're playing full cockpit. If you're good enough to pull it off, you should be good enough to get away once you have, considering that your enemy wasn't good enough to counter your move, part of the qualification in that same complete sentence.

ps - you don't keep heading down. You half-loop to be heading in the opposite general direction that you had been traveling to both increase separation and not hit the ground.

[Jumoschwanz]

A fight between two fighter aircraft is a complicated thing, sometimes your opponent will put some distance between you and sometimes they will not.

Sometimes they might be running away to go home, or very often they might just be getting room and energy to turn and zoom back at you and blow you to pieces.

Usually if someone gets away from me I will level off and fly at an angle off their flight path so I can keep an eye on them. If they want to go home fine, but if I see them zooming back up or at me, then I will turn back towards them to either take a shot or evade their attack. Either way by the time they get back to my altitude they have lost energy.


It is not uncommon for those with a classic advantage of some sort to end up being shot down anyway by some experienced opponent with an unexpected trick up their sleeve, I have been on both ends of that story.....!

[Laurwin]

Originally Posted by MaxGunz

When you clip words out of context and slap on "never say never", all I can say is that the context provided a big qualifier that you seem to have missed, "A follower that doesn't roll with you will overshoot".
Perhaps I should have added "unless you're a clueless dweeb and jerk around perhaps with your flaps down after you get low and slow" to the end.
In the original, the enemy has lost sight of you. At no point do you rely on losing sight of the enemy though keeping him in view may be impossible at some point if you're playing full cockpit. If you're good enough to pull it off, you should be good enough to get away once you have, considering that your enemy wasn't good enough to counter your move, part of the qualification in that same complete sentence.

ps - you don't keep heading down. You half-loop to be heading in the opposite general direction that you had been traveling to both increase separation and not hit the ground.

Eh it appears so that I misunderstood your second example completely?

Your first example I have heard of it being used in similar way as Robert Johnson did.

A fw190 sees a trailing spitfire in rear sector.

Fw190 makes maybe an initial gentle turn - sustained turn with rudder.

Spitfire adjusts his course slightly to follow

Then the fw190 rolls and adjusts his course slightly either to right or left (compared to his original straight course). FW190 has to try to minimize loss of speed in this manouver of course.

Spitfire cannot roll as fast obviously so he cannot mimic the movements exactly

spitfire has to make a turn of somekind (even a gentle turn) to keep following fw190 closely

Then the fw190 just keeps increasing distance patiently until he's comfortable