Dogfighting -does 4.11-4.12 patch address this?

[Laurwin]

AI friend-foe detection probably does work like that somewhat, as in they would know upon seeing something whether its friend or foe.

Althoufh otherwise AI doesnt react to this kind of data with immediate urgency. Probably its because of formation discipline together with maybe AI skill levels.

Effectively what could happen is that once in dot range under 10km, AI probably does see you but still keeps trucking on their flight path. Happens in campaigns, youd have to be coalt at least, preferrably with alt advantage.

Hehe, feels funny when I was playing wildcat campaign i dove straight into a zeke formation. I picked first two bandits out without much reaction, then my AI buddies started attacking them also. Probably tjere were some rookie zekes though.

[Pugo3]

Was swept away with business, hence the black out on my part - interesting to see the various thread postings.

Two clarifications/corrections: I reloaded Win 7 Prof a few weeks ago, and found that the multiple AI combats are just fine.

My original posting comments were based on my combats years ago using my previous XP set up, mostly using 4.07. I mentioned in another post re a serious drop in performance from my previous XP set up to my current W7 computer, and it may be that not only my aircraft but the AI were all overamped, as the AI then were on me like angry hornets, very quick and fast. I had pretty much abandoned fighting against multiples due to the seeming rocket performance of the AI, which was enhanced with multiple AI adversaries. With my W7 reload, all is well..."nevermind", so to speak! The one respondents’ comments [Bearcat, I believe] regarding taking on multiple AI in ACE mode are also duly noted, thank you.

Regarding my statement that the majority of combats were close in dog fighting, I should have specified when the combatants have seen each other... I accept the corrections of those who contended with my posting in this regard – unseen assailants did make up the majority of combat kills. Having conceded my overstatement, no combatant would stay in the combat zone if when encountering an enemy the opposing fighter simply climbed away to set up for b&z – the German pilots often relied on their camouflage to disengage at an opportune time; always better to head home for lunch and rest than play target to an enemy fighter. So again, not realistic in the main with this scenario being the default response in the game, though by the reports I understand that the AI in 4.12 no longer possesses omniscient vision to follow you all the way back to base at high altitude…if this is the case, then eluding such tactics would be relatively easy. But would crossing aircraft having mutually seen each other climb away like this or begin to engage?

Regarding my comment re AI refusing close dogfighting against certain opposing aircraft, my request was that the option might be available to experience dogfights which are not available at present, that did in fact historically occur on many occasions. Just a request. I mentioned in another posting some time ago that perhaps a toggle switch in the set up might offer options as follows: "Dogfight", "B&Z", "Random" As it stands, the option is entirely unavailable at present, and adding this feature would enhance, not degrade the game.


If you review my original posting: you will note that I acknowledged and thanked both the originators and current developers working to improve Il-2 1946. Offering suggestions or constructive criticisms are not attacks against the developers present and past, nor attacks against Ubisoft, nor requests to degrade the game. Such comments are a reveal of certain persons lacking decency and integrity who participate in forums, a plague of our times. There is no possibility of any present developer to correct these types…that will need to wait for another developer.

p3

[majorfailure]

Originally Posted by Pugo3

Regarding my statement that the majority of combats were close in dog fighting, I should have specified when the combatants have seen each other...

I'd still doubt that, but at least they did happen on a regular basis.

Originally Posted by Pugo3

I accept the corrections of those who contended with my posting in this regard – unseen assailants did make up the majority of combat kills. Having conceded my overstatement, no combatant would stay in the combat zone if when encountering an enemy the opposing fighter simply climbed away to set up for b&z – the German pilots often relied on their camouflage to disengage at an opportune time; always better to head home for lunch and rest than play target to an enemy fighter. So again, not realistic in the main with this scenario being the default response in the game, though by the reports I understand that the AI in 4.12 no longer possesses omniscient vision to follow you all the way back to base at high altitude…if this is the case, then eluding such tactics would be relatively easy.

Yes, the AI that doesn't see all is a blessing, and you can catch them with thier "pants down", and you can run from them and they lose interest after some while, and you can hide in clouds. I do think the AI, especially the less capable ones have a too good situational awareness and once you are spotted it is difficult too attack even rookie AI from blind spots.

Originally Posted by Pugo3

But would crossing aircraft having mutually seen each other climb away like this or begin to engage?

Depending on numbers, pilots experience and training, planes and mission of those planes, both flights could have reason to engage or not. If both planes capabilities are close, and both sides pilots knowing that fact, they could try to get the enemy now, when he is still at equal footing. But one can also argue that when the enemy knows of your presence you have given away your greatest possible advantage - and you risk too much when engaging now. And then there are mission constraints e. g. a pilot on CAP does not have the luxury of avoiding the fight.

[Pugo3]

Originally Posted by majorfailure

... And then there are mission constraints e. g. a pilot on CAP does not have the luxury of avoiding the fight.

Yes, I've discussed this before too, events presented in such a way as to demand engagement. Others have posted accurately, as you mentioned as well, regarding not engaging certainly being the best option in many instances; however, the opposite was true as well. Mission constraints, someone in trouble, etc.

What I am proposing is simply to have the opportunity to see how one aircraft would compare in a classic dogfight with another type, and the challenge of using your aircrafts' strengths and your piloting abilities to overcome an adversary. Robert Johnson described coming upon a Spit Mk IV when flying a T-bolt with the new paddle blade props - with an exchanged look and thumbs up sign, the Brit and US pilot began a mock combat, which ended with Johnson gaining the win [established kill position, checkmate] You read such accounts from all sides, seeing how one aircraft maneuvered with another in a close in fight. It is a primal instinct of fighter pilots to want to test their aircraft against a rivals bird.

However, as I related in my original posting, presently a 51' or 47' will not dogfight a 109 or 190. A late war Japanese fighter will not dogfight a Hellcat. An Oscar will not engage a Wildcat. Never. The game presently simulates only one combat option with these match ups, no exceptions: AI flies directly away to begin an endless series of b&z jousting head on passes. Yet combat accounts of dogfights between these aircraft include close in dogfights that lasted sometimes up to 15 minutes or more. It is amazing to me how vigorously and venomously some persons argue and resist this simple truth. The game would be enhanced, not degraded, by the simple addition of close in dogfighting being included as an option for all aircraft.

p3

[X-Raptor]

+1 Pugo3! well described, I agree with you at 100%.. but hey!, you can notice that this forum isn't very friendly for people like you & me.. check this instead where other simmers like us describe and (with reasons) criticize 4.12 A.I. : http://www.mission4today.com/index.p...wtopic&t=17382

..and you will not see any reply by any "ace/teacher" like you can find here in this forum where people only tell you that A.I. 4.12 is all OK(...) and reason is just because you are a shit-player

[K_Freddie]

You know the AI is still easy, It is different to the previous versions and more aggressive. This is very much what a human rookie pilot would be like.

I find myself having to fly a bit more harder, but nothing spectacular. That I leave for human opponents online.

[IceFire]

Originally Posted by X-Raptor

+1 Pugo3! well described, I agree with you at 100%.. but hey!, you can notice that this forum isn't very friendly for people like you & me.. check this instead where other simmers like us describe and (with reasons) criticize 4.12 A.I. : http://www.mission4today.com/index.p...wtopic&t=17382

..and you will not see any reply by any "ace/teacher" like you can find here in this forum where people only tell you that A.I. 4.12 is all OK(...) and reason is just because you are a shit-player

I (and others) encouraged you to improve your flying skills and were even willing to provide examples of how... I certainly didn't call you a "shit player".

[Derda508]

I know, that the initial question was about dogfighting in QMB, but I just had an experience in a campaign, that I want to share.
Presently I am flying two blue campaigns parallel: Desaster at the Frontiers (Europe) with Bf 109 and later Fw 190, and Asia for the Asians (Pacific) with Ki-27 and later Ki-43. I am late in 1941 in both campaigns and it is quite unbelievable that the 109 F2 and the Ki-27 were in the air and fighting at the same time.
But to the point: In the pacific campaing with Ki-27 against I-153 and I-16 you get all the dogfighting that you can wish for. The plane set of both sides is build for this. The Russian I-16 would love to get you to dogfight in your Bf 109 as well, but you would be pretty unwise to do it. So, what kind of fight you get, depends very much on the aircraft you choose. With P-47 vs. Fw 190 it seems pretty unlikely to get a dogfight, with the rice bowls against the Ratas you will have it. And, thanks to the new patches, some of the AI will surprise you even after years of playing: yesterday evening, close to the end of a mission, I encountered a pair of I-16 in my Ki-27. After some wild curving I managed to get behind one of them, tried to get it into that miserable gunsight .. and was shot down by the other one. I watched the track and yes: it really looked as if they did me in with very well coordinated drag and bag tactics. I repeated the mission several times (well, I had to, because I was shot down ...) but whenever I met these two Ratas, they did the same thing, even when I still had some wingmen with me: picking me out as the flight leader, one playing the bait, the other one getting behind me for the kill. And then they tried the same with the rest of my flight. Well, I think that this is VERY impressive for AI behaviour and certainly a most exiting dogfight.

[Notorious M.i.G.]

Originally Posted by Pugo3

The game presently simulates only one combat option with these match ups, no exceptions: AI flies directly away to begin an endless series of b&z jousting head on passes.

That's odd, because from 4.11 onwards I've noticed the AI is more averse to playing "keep-away", and they have a few more tricks other than just rolling to throw someone off.

Obviously if they're flying a plane with a speed advantage they'll tend to leg it away from you, but I've seen Fw 190s get down and dirty trying to turnfight Russians on the deck. Point in case:



That's a Fw 190F tangling at knifepoint with a MiG-3U, both Average AI. The fight went from 5000m to sea level before the 190 finally pulled too hard into a turn and spun in. Speaking of which, while AI spins are a nice inclusion, it tends to only happen with Veteran and Ace AI, while the rookies play it safe. I'd expect the Rookies to spin their aircraft in carelessly sharp turns more often and take longer to recover (or even not at all).

[IceFire]

Originally Posted by Pugo3

Yes, I've discussed this before too, events presented in such a way as to demand engagement. Others have posted accurately, as you mentioned as well, regarding not engaging certainly being the best option in many instances; however, the opposite was true as well. Mission constraints, someone in trouble, etc.

What I am proposing is simply to have the opportunity to see how one aircraft would compare in a classic dogfight with another type, and the challenge of using your aircrafts' strengths and your piloting abilities to overcome an adversary. Robert Johnson described coming upon a Spit Mk IV when flying a T-bolt with the new paddle blade props - with an exchanged look and thumbs up sign, the Brit and US pilot began a mock combat, which ended with Johnson gaining the win [established kill position, checkmate] You read such accounts from all sides, seeing how one aircraft maneuvered with another in a close in fight. It is a primal instinct of fighter pilots to want to test their aircraft against a rivals bird.

However, as I related in my original posting, presently a 51' or 47' will not dogfight a 109 or 190. A late war Japanese fighter will not dogfight a Hellcat. An Oscar will not engage a Wildcat. Never. The game presently simulates only one combat option with these match ups, no exceptions: AI flies directly away to begin an endless series of b&z jousting head on passes. Yet combat accounts of dogfights between these aircraft include close in dogfights that lasted sometimes up to 15 minutes or more. It is amazing to me how vigorously and venomously some persons argue and resist this simple truth. The game would be enhanced, not degraded, by the simple addition of close in dogfighting being included as an option for all aircraft.

p3

It's odd that you say they begin an endless series of B&Z jousting... and yet my experience directly combats that. You want to see endless B&Z and I encourage you to find some highly disciplined pilots online who will do that. The AI likes to mix it up dogfight style more often than not.

The track files I posted before (conveniently located here: http://sdrv.ms/1bDuTyK ) show them doing the close in fight thing. They do that a lot.

Now... what you suggested with having the ability to give the AI a couple of different flight profiles does make a lot of sense. I can actually see that working well for both fighters and bomber/attack aircraft as it would be nice to specify to the AI that you want dive bomb, strafing attacks, single pass strafing, or level bombing. Similarly being able to tell them to do a close in fight or boom and zoom ...not exclusively but as a preference would be a neat feature. There may be further delineations but it does make a lot of sense. A good and reasonable suggestion!