Hardware, software and the future of flight combat sims.

[Skoshi Tiger]

Damn! I just spent half an hour crafting a beautifully worded response to this topic - distilling my thirty years experiences in computing, software development and flight simming and - my bloody computer turned itself off!!! **&^%$* %%^&&% $#^%%^ - Heres the short version

One of the problems is that although our hardware is still improving and processor power is increasing and following the old moores law, we haven't developed ways of harnessing that power.

All the major CPU and GPU platforms have plateaued in terms of clock rate and that increase in power is being increased in terms of number of processors Cores or texture units or whatever you wan't to call them.

To take advantage of that power the programs need to be multi threaded and contain tasks that can be solved using parallel processing, Graphics cards work good using this approach. Other areas of programming the sims are not so good.

In a recent interview at Sim HQ Albert Zhiltsov, one of lead ROF development people, was talking about the complexity of modern fligh sims and said

I am an optimist. I believe that right now — somewhere in the doorway of a university or an office — a young man leaves with a solid idea to make a project better than Rise of Flight. But, as we said earlier — it will be harder for him to do than it was for us, because the speed of life will increase even more and financial crises will put into question all existing business models again and again. James Cameron dove to the bottom of the Mariana Trench, using his own funds. Perhaps this young man will find an opportunity to test his strength; I wish him luck and will be happy to share my experience with him. I am an optimist.

Hopefully the person Albert was talking about will have the idea about making the program scalable accross miltiple cores (to realise that improvement in performance), be able to create a demonstator as proof of concept and will then be snapped up by one of the bigger development houses rather than out lay the costs from his own funds.

The scary thing is is that any development needs to be spending part of their profits on
research and development or the life of their product will be limited. Oleg knew this and this approach showed it through out the life of the Il2 series up until present. Unfortunately he forgot that they do have to make an actual profit and they couldn't get it together before funds ran out and COD development came to a crashing halt.

My biggest fear is that the new il2 sim will go the other way and will not get that fundimental development to the core of the product and the development will be focused on content. The problem with this approach is that when something does arive that is fundimentally better it will be too late to catch up.

To fund this development a steady stream of income is required. It shows how distructive the whinning, and snide remarks can be to these products.

[SlipBall]

They say that the memristor will have the same leap forward for mankind this century, as the resistor did in the last century.
http://www.wired.com/wiredenterprise...hp-memristors/

[startrekmike]

I would say that at this point, the DCS world modules (other than FC3) are pretty much the end all and be all of flight sims in the market.

While I like CloD, it's realism level pales in comparison.

[Skoshi Tiger]

Originally Posted by startrekmike

I would say that at this point, the DCS world modules (other than FC3) are pretty much the end all and be all of flight sims in the market.

While I like CloD, it's realism level pales in comparison.

I've bought a few of the DCS products including the P-51 and they have some excelent systems modeling and features. Great Flight simulator. Can't wait until they release the production version.

That said as a "Combat Flight Simulator" it is lacking in that the P-51 has no contemporary targets, or maps, or adverseraries. These are not critisims, The Developers have never stated that they would have. The P-51 is just as they said it would be.

I see that some people are holding out for a contemporary environment for the P-51. That would be great. But I am not holding my breath. How long have we been waiting for the Nivarda map? It just must be very hard to create maps for DCS World.

[baronWastelan]

Also worth mentioning that the desktop PC is this decade's equivalent of the CD player, inasmuch as the under-30 consumer would rather have nothing to do with them. (yes, I still buy CD's )

For example, in my current employment, my Android phone is serving in the role a laptop would have 10 years ago.

[zapatista]

Originally Posted by startrekmike

I would say that at this point, the DCS world modules (other than FC3) are pretty much the end all and be all of flight sims in the market.

While I like CloD, it's realism level pales in comparison.

i dont think that is true, but to be honest i havnt spent much time with the DCS p51, only tried it on a friends pc a few times (compared to what is prob 1000 hrs or more on il2 over the years). their DCS p51 is very good, has complex systems modeled etc, but in actual "flight feel", the issue of representing the sensation of flight itself, with the aircraft interacting against the wind and weather, to me the DCS p51 experience feels almost sterile compared to the "living world" of flying aircraft in CoD (or late versions of the previous il2 series)

for ex read some of the threads/posts on this forum on how to activate some of the currently inactive weather elements in CoD, then go and try some crosswind landings with a strong gale, its very realistic (because of the cpu/gpu load, most pc's can only run those as single player missions, but worth a try if you havnt experienced it). similarly for the feel of doing barrel rolls, immelman's, hammerhead's and other flight maneuvers, for me CoD is significantly superior.

then look at the detailed physical damage model to the aircraft in CoD, each element carefully modeled (em but not working perfectly yet), there is nothing like that in DCS p51, neither is the cockpit as photo realistic and 3D as in CoD

the DCS p51 is pretty amazing however, and to me is the next best thing. i really hope they proceed quickly with their with their new gfx engine built (to be used for all their aircraft), and that they add more ww2 flyable aircraft so the p51 can be used for actual combat flying in some historical settings

i am not stating these things to argue and currently DCS is our next best hope in ww2 combat sims, currently however their p51 aircraft is even as a single aircraft not quiet up to par to the CoD aircraft (but some of those have individual bugs that would still need resolving) and the environment it flies around in (weather, scenery, etc)

[Igo kyu]

Originally Posted by Skoshi Tiger

Damn! I just spent half an hour crafting a beautifully worded response to this topic - distilling my thirty years experiences in computing, software development and flight simming and - my bloody computer turned itself off!!! **&^%$* %%^&&% $#^%%^ - Heres the short version

One of the problems is that although our hardware is still improving and processor power is increasing and following the old moores law, we haven't developed ways of harnessing that power.

This may be the answer:

http://developers.slashdot.org/story...ores-law-gains

Of course, it may also turn out not to work, but I don't know why it wouldn't.

[Skoshi Tiger]

Originally Posted by Igo kyu

This may be the answer:

http://developers.slashdot.org/story...ores-law-gains

Of course, it may also turn out not to work, but I don't know why it wouldn't.

Very interesting read. Thanks for the link.

[NZtyphoon]

Originally Posted by Skoshi Tiger

Damn! I just spent half an hour crafting a beautifully worded response to this topic - distilling my thirty years experiences in computing, software development and flight simming and - my bloody computer turned itself off!!! **&^%$* %%^&&% $#^%%^ - Heres the short version


The scary thing is is that any development needs to be spending part of their profits on
research and development or the life of their product will be limited. Oleg knew this and this approach showed it through out the life of the Il2 series up until present. Unfortunately he forgot that they do have to make an actual profit and they couldn't get it together before funds ran out and COD development came to a crashing halt.

My biggest fear is that the new il2 sim will go the other way and will not get that fundimental development to the core of the product and the development will be focused on content. The problem with this approach is that when something does arive that is fundimentally better it will be too late to catch up.

To fund this development a steady stream of income is required. It shows how distructive the whinning, and snide remarks can be to these products.

From what I read on the BoS developer's Friday updates they have very deliberately been conservative, staying within a set time limit and (presumably) budget. I'm in favour of this because, much as I enjoy playing CLoD, I'm aware of its underdevelopment and the limitations that have resulted.

I haven't been around the entire time of CLoD development and introduction to the market, so I'm probably not as loyal to it as some are. However, I do know that CLoD unfortunately garnered a bad public reputation on Amazon and elsewhere, which still hasn't been fully dispelled, and sales must have suffered. Sad, considering how much time, energy and money was poured into it. CLoD deserved to succeed, and I hope someone will be able to use the software to develop a good immersion combat sim.

I also hope that the new IL2 iteration will succeed because success will hopefully lead to more developments more in tune with the wants and expectations of players. It must be a fine balancing act to develop a game which will go some way to satisfying the wants and desires of "immersion" gamers, versus those of the console variety.

[zapatista]

Originally Posted by NZtyphoon

From what I read on the BoS developer's Friday updates they have very deliberately been conservative, staying within a set time limit and (presumably) budget. I'm in favour of this because, much as I enjoy playing CLoD, I'm aware of its underdevelopment and the limitations that have resulted. .

that is a twist on reality that the sales pitch wants you to believe, reality is somewhat different. from its very inception BoS is simply not capable to come anywhere close to the realism of CoD in simulating realistic flight models, or use highly detailed scenery and objects, neither does it allow for a high multpilayer count with a high AI activity figure. and the current designers have said as much themselves. the BoS ground scenery will again be sterile and empty, and be devoid of any activity

what they will do is sell you a reskinned RoF (same engine, same design team) with a few ww2 aircraft, and from then on you'll be expected to pay another 20 to 50$ per months for further aircraft and newer object, and if you dont hop on that jason-gravy-train you'll be told "you just dont want flightsims to succeed", while he orders his next lexus

when you compare the expectations for BoS with the current CoD, BoS looses out on just about every point in a direct comparison

that doesnt mean people shouldnt buy it, up to them to do with their money what they want (like the hesitant RoF customer visiting these forums recently who timidly said "he wasnt sure he'd want to spend another 500$ buying lots of addons for their next sim again just because he kept being told constantly it needed "support"). if you look at the product RoF is designing now for BoS, be ready to be disappointed if you think it will be anywhere near CoD/il2 in performance or ability, using the il2sturmovik name is just a re-branding from the 1C company who funds its development, its not a content description.

RoF current sales blurbs are deliberately pitching their next products ability and performance very low, because, well, it will be low compared to CoD, and they dont want to get sucked into not delivering on high promises which they know from the start they wont be able to meet. it will be pretty, it will have ww2 planes, people can play airquake and !S each other on forums and pretend to be the red baron, but it wont be il2 as we know it, or would expect it

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