Flying the 109: Pilot Accounts

[Crumpp]

real world data on an aircraft's characteristics can be gathered

Absolutely, but that data has to be gathered by a trained test pilot under measureable and defineable conditions.

The idea of flight testing is eliminate the subjective and stick to the objective.

That is why the NACA developed defined and measureable flying qualities standard during the war in conjunction with the test pilots.

[NZtyphoon]

Originally Posted by Crumpp

Absolutely, but that data has to be gathered by a trained test pilot under measureable and defineable conditions.

The idea of flight testing is eliminate the subjective and stick to the objective.

That is why the NACA developed defined and measureable flying qualities standard during the war in conjunction with the test pilots.

Apart from trying to re-litigate something which seems to be an obsession with you, what exactly is the point you are making? AFAIK Buzzsaw simply wanted to present flight reports from pilots who have flown the 109, and who have no axe to grind over whether it is some wondrous über fighter; nor am I or anyone else interested in getting into yet another one of your tedious and grandstanding "debates" over NACA's flight tests v everyone else.

[*Buzzsaw*]

Salute

The original and complete RAE report on a captured 109E3 can be found here:

http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/att...dling-test.pdf

You may need to be a member of the WWII Aircraft Forums to download it.

You can also see the report in a transcribed format on Kurfurst's 109 page.

http://www.kurfurst.org/Tactical_tri...ls/Morgan.html

I am not sure the version posted on Kurfurst's page is complete.

I am not going to post the entire 40 pages of that report, just the sections which I think are most relevant to the aircraft's flying characteristics.

The RAE test is undoubtably the most definitive and scientific report on the flying qualities of the aircraft, as well as its technical details. Unfortunately it is impossible to say whether or not this aircraft's engine was performing to the level which might have been achieved by an operational 109E3 in the hands of a Luftwaffe Staffel. It was one of two 109's which had originally been captured by the French Air Force, put through a series of tests by them, and then shipped over to Britain. However, the technical examination, as well as the results which could be ascertained with lower speed testing, (as for example stall speeds) and which were not dependent on maximum performance can certainly be taken as a good representation of the aircraft's capabilities.

I'll post those excerpts and my comments tommorrow.

[Robo.]

Good read all of the above, thanks for posting!

[SlipBall]

Some good reading here...All in all I'm alright with the 109 they gave us here in game...the one thing that I would like to see worked on is the brakes. I have read that the aircraft had no tendency to be nose heavy when applying them

[ACE-OF-ACES]

Pilot Accounts (combat reports) provide good data with regards to flying qualities and tactics..

For example:

"I felt a slight buzz in the stick just prior to the stall".
"The plane gave no warning in the form of a shutter or stick buzz prior to the stall"

But Pilot Accounts (combat reports) provide little if any data with regards to aircraft performance let alone realitive performance.

We know this to be true, in that for every Bf109 'pilot account' that says he was able to out turn a Spitfire, there is a Spitfire 'pilot account' that says he was able to out turn a Bf109.

Therefore Pilot Accounts should be the last, if ever, data used to justify a change to the flight model performance wise.

In short see sig

[WTE_Galway]

In the end most gamers have a preconceived idea of how their favorite mount "should" perform and will pick and choose at will between flight data and pilot accounts depending on what supports there case best.

Meanwhile if you want a HUGE collection of anecdotes and historical assessments of the 109 from pilots of both sides have a look here:

http://www.virtualpilots.fi/feature/articles/109myths/

[NZtyphoon]

Originally Posted by ACE-OF-ACES

Pilot Accounts (combat reports) provide good data with regards to flying qualities and tactics..

For example:

"I felt a slight buzz in the stick just prior to the stall".
"The plane gave no warning in the form of a shutter or stick buzz prior to the stall"

But Pilot Accounts (combat reports) provide little if any data with regards to aircraft performance let alone realitive performance.

We know this to be true, in that for every Bf109 'pilot account' that says he was able to out turn a Spitfire, there is a Spitfire 'pilot account' that says he was able to out turn a Bf109.

Therefore Pilot Accounts should be the last, if ever, data used to justify a change to the flight model performance wise.

In short see sig

A good balance would be pilot reports and hard data - that way you get the idea of the flight qualities, plus the analysis of hard data.

[Crumpp]

idea of the flight qualities

You really will not get very much useful information on the flight qualities without measured data on trim condition, rigging, and CG location.

[Robo.]

Originally Posted by NZtyphoon

A good balance would be pilot reports and hard data - that way you get the idea of the flight qualities, plus the analysis of hard data.

I agree! And thanks for an interesting thread.