Friday the 14th Development Update

[zapatista]

Originally Posted by Tree_UK

Well Zap you certainly win a prize for the biggest load of bollox typed on the forum this year, funny though I'll give you that

and the only good thing about you tree is that you are so obsessively busy posting negative crap about things you know little about, is that the chances of you ever reproducing are near to nil

[furbs]

Originally Posted by zapatista

let me show you the light !

No AA ? not important in the grand scheme of things (right now), can be dealt with later
No X64bit ? most russian customers pc's still run on 32 bit hardware/software
No DX11 ? most russian customers pc's still run on dx9 (see earlier stats quoted by B6). some of us here seem to forget the il2 and SoW series are primarily aimed at the russian/east-block market, having it released to the west is a very secondary aspect. we will get 64bit and dx11, it just wont be very soon for these obvious reasons, and stomping our little feet on the ground about it wont change anything in that regard.
The clouds ? yeps we all want/like nicer and newer clouds, not a show stopper (as long as terrain and cloud masking works for AI's)
particles, smoke ? eh buy a bigger and better pc if you want those, its high end eye candy for the rich
hit affects are still not working as intended ? easy fix
Tree's and shadows still flicker and shimmer ? tree collision models is probably a resource issue, right now we have more visible trees in a very large landscape then any other flight sim and we just aint got the pc's to crunch that number. i suspect that might not be solved even by BoM release (hope it will), just remeber you are buying a flight sim, not a tree sim the shimmer and flikker is a gfx bug, relatively simple to fix and will be done (since other speed tree sims dont have this problem)
View range for aircraft is still way too low, with mid and far LOD's that are horrible ? yups i find that a MAJOR issue, but it is relatively easy to fix. CoD uses up to 10 LoD models versus the 3 in il2-1946, now the gfx engine is fixed altering the visibility of the more distant LoD models is fairly simple (not that i trust luthier to understand its importance, and be willing to direct this as a priority fix that will have a big positive impact on gameplay.
Ground object view distance is terrible and make bombing missions almost unplayable ? is linked to LoD models and a temporary byproduct of the new and improved gfx engine, again relatively easy to fix
Craters and far objects still show through landscape and cockpits ? annoying yes, but technically a minor issue to resolve, easy fix
Mirrors still dont work ? real men dont need mirrors ! you should be chasing the enemy, not let him chase you ! j/k, easy fix obviously (other then it being a resource hog, so must of us wont be able to switch it on even if it works)

That to me is not a working GFX engine: that to me is no reason to be a drama queen 6 - 9 months before release and imply the sky is falling in


if you are ignoring large parts of reality no wonder you cant arrive at the right conclusions. the ONLY issue with the CoD problems is the forced premature release of an unfinished sim, nothing else. you can either choose between NOTHING or the buggy beta we had in the last 12 months. for me personally i think that giving them some beer money to allow them to keep plodding on for another 12 to 18 months is a pretty good deal to still have the hope of eventually getting a decent and reasonably rounded product tat the end. you see anybody else doing this kinda work for an in depth ww2 sim, me thinks not (and dont bother listing a few that are vaguely in that direction but each have much larger holes to fill before they even come close) ?


then my only question to you is, what have you personally done over this CoD time period to increase or decrease the odds of BoM being a good/better product or resolve and help fix CoD's faults and short coming ? lets be clear now, you are part of the problem furbs, you'r not part of the solution

Zap, looking at your post, are you sure you and Luthier are not related?

Anyway, your post almost made me spit my coffee.

[ACE-OF-ACES]

Originally Posted by zapatista

let me show you the light !

No AA ? not important in the grand scheme of things (right now), can be dealt with later
No X64bit ? most russian customers pc's still run on 32 bit hardware/software
No DX11 ? most russian customers pc's still run on dx9 (see earlier stats quoted by B6). some of us here seem to forget the il2 and SoW series are primarily aimed at the russian/east-block market, having it released to the west is a very secondary aspect. we will get 64bit and dx11, it just wont be very soon for these obvious reasons, and stomping our little feet on the ground about it wont change anything in that regard.
The clouds ? yeps we all want/like nicer and newer clouds, not a show stopper (as long as terrain and cloud masking works for AI's)
particles, smoke ? eh buy a bigger and better pc if you want those, its high end eye candy for the rich
hit affects are still not working as intended ? easy fix
Tree's and shadows still flicker and shimmer ? tree collision models is probably a resource issue, right now we have more visible trees in a very large landscape then any other flight sim and we just aint got the pc's to crunch that number. i suspect that might not be solved even by BoM release (hope it will), just remeber you are buying a flight sim, not a tree sim the shimmer and flikker is a gfx bug, relatively simple to fix and will be done (since other speed tree sims dont have this problem)
View range for aircraft is still way too low, with mid and far LOD's that are horrible ? yups i find that a MAJOR issue, but it is relatively easy to fix. CoD uses up to 10 LoD models versus the 3 in il2-1946, now the gfx engine is fixed altering the visibility of the more distant LoD models is fairly simple (not that i trust luthier to understand its importance, and be willing to direct this as a priority fix that will have a big positive impact on gameplay.
Ground object view distance is terrible and make bombing missions almost unplayable ? is linked to LoD models and a temporary byproduct of the new and improved gfx engine, again relatively easy to fix
Craters and far objects still show through landscape and cockpits ? annoying yes, but technically a minor issue to resolve, easy fix
Mirrors still dont work ? real men dont need mirrors ! you should be chasing the enemy, not let him chase you ! j/k, easy fix obviously (other then it being a resource hog, so must of us wont be able to switch it on even if it works)

That to me is not a working GFX engine: that to me is no reason to be a drama queen 6 - 9 months before release and imply the sky is falling in we now have a basically working gfx engine and most main area's are already working and near completion. its largely a bug fixing stage now rather then new content creation (other then a few people working on new aircraft and objects etc). that is a very different stage of completion than having a non working gfx engine and main missing elements at the point CoD was released. and the good news is that they have a number of other very advanced elements that can be quickly included later on once the main sim is working (pilots with animation, control of vehicles, advanced weather systems etc..). in late 2012 the whole paradigm is rather different them may 2011, most here should be able to see this.

Just ignore those who attack you personally for what you said..

It just proves that they can not address anything in your post (the message)

Which is why they have to resort to attacking you (the messanger)

[lokitexas]

Originally Posted by zapatista

then my only question to you is, what have you personally done over this CoD time period to increase or decrease the odds of BoM being a good/better product or resolve and help fix CoD's faults and short coming ? lets be clear now, you are part of the problem furbs, you'r not part of the solution

So, as a customer, its our job to help fix the product we paid for? And if we dont, we are part of the problem?

Holy hell, this is funny.

I know its an old saying....but what are you smokin?

[Davy TASB]

I fully expect to purchase the Battle Of Moscow thingy just to see what its like when it is on offer in a Steam sale for about £1.37p.

[zapatista]

Originally Posted by lokitexas

So, as a customer, its our job to help fix the product we paid for? And if we dont, we are part of the problem?

you have the right to buy as much coca cola as you want and then get diabetes
you have the right to eat as many hamburgers as you want and then clog your arteries and die prematurely of a heart attack
you also have the right to vote in a corrupt president who then lets his crony friends plunder your national coffers and kill off the american empire in one big swoop

and you also have the right not to do any background reading and go buy any software game you want and end up with a dud but why come and complain about it ? a little homework before putting down your cash would have shown you the risk, to late to complain now padre, all you got left now is the crying over spilled milk

if however you are in the hope of at some time getting your sweaty little hands on a good complex and advanced ww2 flight simulator, where you gonna go ? not many places eh. now take the beta you have now, add 18 months to 2 years, and voila you have a much better product, one that will be playable and will continue to be worked on for the next years to come (as further expansions or the MMO develop)

so just be grateful you helped in some VERY small way to support further development of a great flightsim, say thank you and be on your way !

[Walrus1]

Originally Posted by zapatista

for me personally i think that giving them some beer money to allow them to keep plodding on for another 12 to 18 months is a pretty good deal to still have the hope of eventually getting a decent and reasonably rounded product at the end.

True.

BOM will work out of the box, if it can survive to that point, because of this painful development period.

This sim has been struggling for life since its birth, is being slowly nurtured along although resources are few and far between. There is an angry mob of detractors who take a perverse glee in jeering its faltering progress.

If it can be allowed to live and grow, and if the developers are talented enough and work hard enough, it has a chance to be a really remarkable game.

[kendo65]

Zapa, I try to maintain a neutral stance in your long-running dispute with Tree and Furbs but, really, your description of the issues below is incredibly rose-tinted. Given your characterisation of so many of the issue as 'easy fixes' I have to ask why they haven't been fixed 18 months after release?

Originally Posted by zapatista

No AA ? not important in the grand scheme of things (right now), can be dealt with later

Quite important to me actually, though I agree not a deal breaker.

Originally Posted by zapatista

No X64bit ? most russian customers pc's still run on 32 bit hardware/software
No DX11 ? most russian customers pc's still run on dx9 (see earlier stats quoted by B6). some of us here seem to forget the il2 and SoW series are primarily aimed at the russian/east-block market, having it released to the west is a very secondary aspect. we will get 64bit and dx11, it just wont be very soon for these obvious reasons, and stomping our little feet on the ground about it wont change anything in that regard.

I'm not sure it's true that the sim is aimed primarily at the Russian market, in fact I doubt it is. (Certainly a BOB sim would be expected to sell more in the west.) Some people have stated this a lot recently but I don't think the developers would want to alienate or write off any market that may purchase their product. Given that, DX11 and 64-bit while again not being dealbreakers, are certainly desirable options.

Originally Posted by zapatista

The clouds ? yeps we all want/like nicer and newer clouds, not a show stopper (as long as terrain and cloud masking works for AI's)
particles, smoke ? eh buy a bigger and better pc if you want those, its high end eye candy for the rich

Are you really saying that smoke in a flight sim is an optional extra for the rich?

Originally Posted by zapatista

hit affects are still not working as intended ? easy fix

Hope so. Expect it will be sorted in final COD patch.

Originally Posted by zapatista

Tree's and shadows still flicker and shimmer ? tree collision models is probably a resource issue, right now we have more visible trees in a very large landscape then any other flight sim and we just aint got the pc's to crunch that number. i suspect that might not be solved even by BoM release (hope it will), just remeber you are buying a flight sim, not a tree sim the shimmer and flikker is a gfx bug, relatively simple to fix and will be done (since other speed tree sims dont have this problem)

Just a personal reaction here, but I'm really tired of people passing off missing features of the sim with lines like that. I know it's not a tree sim, it's also not a cloud sim, or a weather sim...but they'd be nice to have!

Originally Posted by zapatista

View range for aircraft is still way too low, with mid and far LOD's that are horrible ? yups i find that a MAJOR issue, but it is relatively easy to fix. CoD uses up to 10 LoD models versus the 3 in il2-1946, now the gfx engine is fixed altering the visibility of the more distant LoD models is fairly simple (not that i trust luthier to understand its importance, and be willing to direct this as a priority fix that will have a big positive impact on gameplay.
Ground object view distance is terrible and make bombing missions almost unplayable ? is linked to LoD models and a temporary byproduct of the new and improved gfx engine, again relatively easy to fix
Craters and far objects still show through landscape and cockpits ? annoying yes, but technically a minor issue to resolve, easy fix

Hope so. My reaction above stands though. If so easy why not done?

Originally Posted by zapatista

Mirrors still dont work ? real men dont need mirrors ! you should be chasing the enemy, not let him chase you ! j/k, easy fix obviously (other then it being a resource hog, so must of us wont be able to switch it on even if it works)

Obviously another easy one that they could have fixed anytime at all in the last year and a half, but chose not to.

Sorry Zap. Please don't take it personally. I just can't go along with most of your take on things.

[furbs]

Originally Posted by kendo65

Zapa, I try to maintain a neutral stance in your long-running dispute with Tree and Furbs but, really, your description of the issues below is incredibly rose-tinted. Given your characterisation of so many of the issue as 'easy fixes' I have to ask why they haven't been fixed 18 months after release?



Quite important to me actually, though I agree not a deal breaker.



I'm not sure it's true that the sim is aimed primarily at the Russian market, in fact I doubt it is. (Certainly a BOB sim would be expected to sell more in the west.) Some people have stated this a lot recently but I don't think the developers would want to alienate or write off any market that may purchase their product. Given that, DX11 and 64-bit while again not being dealbreakers, are certainly desirable options.



Are you really saying that smoke in a flight sim is an optional extra for the rich?

Hope so. Expect it will be sorted in final COD patch.


Just a personal reaction here, but I'm really tired of people passing off missing features of the sim with lines like that. I know it's not a tree sim, it's also not a cloud sim, or a weather sim...but they'd be nice to have!



Hope so. My reaction above stands though. If so easy why not done?


Obviously another easy one that they could have fixed anytime at all in the last year and a half, but chose not to.

Sorry Zap. Please don't take it personally. I just can't go along with most of your take on things.

Cheers kendo, and the point was not if these features or affects are easy to fix(not if you ask Luthier)...the point was if they are working now.

[zapatista]

Originally Posted by kendo65

Zapa, I try to maintain a neutral stance in your long-running dispute with Tree and Furbs .

just remember that all those years of swiss neutrality only ever ended up producing a Cuckoo clock clock as its greatest feat

Originally Posted by kendo65

Given your characterisation of so many of the issue as 'easy fixes' I have to ask why they haven't been fixed 18 months after release?

you already know the answer to this untill the main faulty core of CoD was fixed (gfx engine), none of the other issues mattered much, and there are several reasons for this:
firstly, because many of them are secondary elements to the gfx engine itself (lod model visibility, tree shimmering, clouds etc), so its a waste of time fixing things in the old game engine while the new one is being developed.
secondly: because there was no financial reward in spending most manpower on fixing the old problems while all hands on deck were required to stop the axe falling on the whole project, for that survival a soonish BoM was essential (and still is)

Originally Posted by kendo65

Are you really saying that smoke in a flight sim is an optional extra for the rich?

i was mostly responding to the big issue of dust clouds during takeoff/landings issue, and the high level eye candy for some smoke effects we saw during early development, most of these effects are very high demands on system resources to see them in all their glory, and only very few here have reported playable frame rates during some of these effect. of course we need decent (but relatively low detailed) smoke and dust effects, but unless you have a very high end pc and they make a major leap forward in code efficiency those better effects are probably a luxury we cant afford for most of us.

Originally Posted by kendo65

Just a personal reaction here, but I'm really tired of people passing off missing features of the sim with lines like that. I know it's not a tree sim, it's also not a cloud sim, or a weather sim...but they'd be nice to have!

sure, i'd love to have them to, and you can add to that a decent dynamic campaign engine and some complex and detailed AI ground vehicle routines providing supply lines to forward troops and airfields etc (already discussed by oleg during development)

sadly the more realistic priorities right now are to get some improvements in AI behaviour, some decent frame rates for mid end pc's on medium settings, better flight models and performance for allied/axis fighters, control and gauges errors fixed, and have the LoD visibility problem solved. that is what my perspective is based on, if we get those elements solved, and sadly there is no indication luthier recognizes the priority these fixes should have to stem most complaints and provide us at least with a functional product.

and that is why i see behavior like furbs and "the foliage one" to be so self defeating and contributing to the current problem. instead we should make a concerted effort to have a list of priority fixes created for luthier (with specific detail on the exact problem, for ex quantify the distant LoD model visibility problem for various FoV's etc). instead some seem focused on this destructive merry-go-round of indulgent self pity and false indignation at a lost few $ you would never worry about in other circumstances. its not as if this was a planned faulty release that was conceived in some evil scheme, what is being done to fix it in the last 12 months is the best the small current programming crew can do to fix things while still trying to ensure the survival of the series, and if anybody here has any hope of getting a decent ww2 sim we better wake up to this.

and i really do believe the major crisis in game performance is over. since the last beta patch i can actually run the sim on my mid livel pc (dual core i5 @ 3.5, 5770 1gb gfx card and 8 gb ram etc), which was impossible at initial release time. that improvement only occurred with last months patch, so it seems appropriate for luthier and Co to now further polish its performance while starting to address the main bugs that hinder game play and normal use.