British FM killing the fun of the game for allied pilots.

[5./JG27.Farber]

Did I misunderstand?

Originally Posted by ATAG_Bliss

Just wanted to post about the oil pressure / engine damage thing:

A standard engine isn't going to be hurt from decel with momentary loss of oil pressure. What I mean by decel is, the engine went from having fuel and cylinders firing to running out of fuel and engine taking a few seconds to come to a stop. A thin layer of oil is around the main/rod bearings to absorb the punishment of the piston going into its compression stroke only to be exploded the opposite direction with combustion. This is violent on the bottom end as all the preload for the rod bearings and that particular connecting rod go from the bottom side of bearing(s) to, when combustion happens, to the top 1/2 of the connecting rod bearing(s) ( all in a split second). Without combustion, freewheel, all you have is the compression stroke causing stress which is absolutely nothing in comparisone to the grenade in the hole slamming the piston down that is called combustion. The biggest chance for airated oil to cause damage is when you regain fuel and the motor kicks back in again, but even then you would have had to fly in such a way that when you ran out of fuel and the engine is on decel to a stop, that you had enough neg g's or were inverted enough that oil never came back into the sump in the 1st place before you fired back up. Kinda like firing up your car after an oil change. Either way, I think if this was to be modeled it would be such a rare occurance that it wouldn't even be worth doing. Basically putting this in the bug tracker isn't correct IMO.

Originally Posted by NZtyphoon

+1

Without any proper data as to when and how damage will occur nothing much will be accomplished by attempting to replicate such a condition.

I agree with Bliss but...

Lets read the 3rd point again...




Seems it will damage the pitch which will return to fine and then overspeeding of the engine that will cause the damage.

Originally Posted by Robo.

Very well! I'll do that at some point (if no one is faster).

Maybe I should put it up then or it will never get done?

[ATAG_Snapper]

Originally Posted by 5./JG27.Farber

Did I misunderstand?






I agree with Bliss but...

Lets read the 3rd point again...




Seems it will damage the pitch which will return to fine and then overspeeding of the engine that will cause the damage.




Maybe I should put it up then or it will never get done?

I thought the overspeeding prop after an engine cut was already modelled in this sim. Seems I have to quickly reduce throttle or the revs quickly climb above 3500+ when the engine restarts. Am I wrong on this?

[5./JG27.Farber]

Originally Posted by ATAG_Snapper

I thought the overspeeding prop after an engine cut was already modelled in this sim. Seems I have to quickly reduce throttle or the revs quickly climb above 3500+ when the engine restarts. Am I wrong on this?

You guys would know better than me but as Robo is a red pilot 1st I thought him offering to add it as a bug / feature ment it was not.

Ive just been thinking about it actually and it applies to a CSP. Is this not an automatic pitch propellor? What mark of engine is this manual for?

Trying to research this myself but red stuff is all new to me, found this:

http://spitfiresite.com/2010/06/batt...ropellers.html

[NZtyphoon]

Originally Posted by 5./JG27.Farber

You guys would know better than me but as Robo is a red pilot 1st I thought him offering to add it as a bug / feature ment it was not.

Ive just been thinking about it actually and it applies to a CSP. Is this not an automatic pitch propellor? What mark of engine is this manual for?

Trying to research this myself but red stuff is all new to me, found this:

http://spitfiresite.com/2010/06/batt...ropellers.html

The Pilot's Notes General don't apply to any particular mark or make of engine, they were issued to all pilots and used in conjunction with the Pilot's Notes issued for different aircraft types and models. The PNs Gen comments on propellers and overspeeding:

[5./JG27.Farber]

Originally Posted by NZtyphoon

The Pilot's Notes General don't apply to any particular mark or make of engine, they were issued to all pilots and used in conjunction with the Pilot's Notes issued for different aircraft types and models. The PNs Gen comments on propellers and overspeeding:

ok so whats the date of publication of this article?


Snapper, Dutch and Osprey I take it from your sarcasim that you object to having any negative flight model aspects added even though you constantly cry for a better, truer and more historically accurate flight model. I find it kind of odd when someone else makes a point that might add a realistic characteristic that you belittle the entire thread. Lets just get the facts so we can present them! Not sustain the red vs blue stance.

We can go over the 109 after if you like, I would enjoy that more. The narrow track landing gear physics do not operate as I have read them (when one wheel is on the ground and the other is not which causes the grounded wheel to move toward the centre - turning the aircraft over) for starters.

[NZtyphoon]

Originally Posted by 5./JG27.Farber

ok so whats the date of publication of this article?

These are the Pilot's Notes General (A.P 2095), 2nd Edition - April 1943. AFAIK the comments on the propellers are the same as those in the first edition from 1940, although that has to be confirmed.

[ATAG_Snapper]

Originally Posted by 5./JG27.Farber

ok so whats the date of publication of this article?


Snapper, Dutch and Osprey I take it from your sarcasim that you object to having any negative flight model aspects added even though you constantly cry for a better, truer and more historically accurate flight model. I find it kind of odd when someone else makes a point that might add a realistic characteristic that you belittle the entire thread. Lets just get the facts so we can present them! Not sustain the red vs blue stance.

We can go over the 109 after if you like, I would enjoy that more. The narrow track landing gear physics do not operate as I have read them (when one wheel is on the ground and the other is not which causes the grounded wheel to move toward the centre - turning the aircraft over) for starters.

Point well taken, Farber.

As for the 109, its shortcomings in this sim are well known:

1) it's too slow
2) the stall characteristics are too harsh
3) it's flat spin is not realistic
4) it's too difficult to bring its sights to bear on target
5) it's narrow-track landing gear characteristics is not accurately modelled (as you noted above)
6) prop pitch too slow in changing

Done. Anything missed?

[Crumpp]

After the application of an inertial elevator to fix the longitudinal instability, the aircraft would have NEAR neutral longitudinal stability.



Before that fix, during the Battle of Britain, Spitfires were longitudinally unstable at normal CG.

Longitudinally, the aircraft is stable with centre of gravity forward, but is unstable with centre of gravity normal and aft with engine 'OFF' and 'ON'.

http://www.spitfireperformance.com/k9787-fuel.html

In the game, they are longitudinally stable both static and dynamic:




That is not representative of an early mark Spitfire.

[VO101_Tom]

Originally Posted by ATAG_Snapper

I thought the overspeeding prop after an engine cut was already modelled in this sim. Seems I have to quickly reduce throttle or the revs quickly climb above 3500+ when the engine restarts. Am I wrong on this?

What is the rev tolerance? It is very strict in the 109. At the moment the engine rev reach the 3000 rpm, the engine immediately starts to shake, and start losing the power (and it will stop some time later, but it depends the throttle). This is absolutely correct, this is in the operating instructions ("if the engine reach the 3000 rpm, if the plane landed, the engine have to replace, and inspected for damage").

For example, if the Merlin XII can survive the 3600 rpm longer than 20 seconds (or the 3600+ any seconds) in dive, then it should be fixed (of course, the various throttle/boost may reduce these limits).

[ATAG_Snapper]

Originally Posted by VO101_Tom

What is the rev tolerance? It is very strict in the 109. At the moment the engine rev reach the 3000 rpm, the engine immediately starts to shake, and start losing the power (and it will stop some time later, but it depends the throttle). This is absolutely correct, this is in the operating instructions ("if the engine reach the 3000 rpm, if the plane landed, the engine have to replace, and inspected for damage").

For example, if the Merlin XII can survive the 3600 rpm longer than 20 seconds (or the 3600+ any seconds) in dive, then it should be fixed (of course, the various throttle/boost may reduce these limits).

I'll evaluate this in due course. At present still evaluating issues brought forward in this forum that the Spitfire, in order of urgent importance:

1) is too stable
1) is too easy to bring sights to bear on target
1) won't enter into a vicious accelerated stall & spin and destroy aircraft
1) rolls too quickly in a dive above 400 mph IAS
1) shows no sign of deceleration with open canopy
1) employs "sonar" when canopy is open
1) neg g cutout does not occur quickly enough with the latest beta
1) quick engagement of elevator control at speed will not over stress and destroy aircraft
1) wings absorb far too much cannon shell punishment
1) IIa is 60 mph too fast ....oops, not any more!
1) flying a Spitfire forces one to use bad tactics and no TS teamwork
1) lands and takes off far too easily
1) prolonged inverted flying doesn't cause oil sump to run instantly dry and destroy aircraft
1) engine cutout doesn't cause CSP to go fine pitch, over rev engine, and destroy aircraft

So much to do, so little time!