Stability and Control characteristics of the Early Mark Spitfires

[robtek]

Originally Posted by DC338

The essential problem and the neglected for most of this thread is how do you simulate it?

I think all sides would agree that the Spitfire had sensitive elevator controls. The degree of problem to the pilot is the issue. Yet with a simulator you have other issues that help or hinder the issue.

1.The problem is how do you simulate that in a game where control curves can be altered?

2.How do you simulate it in a game where you don't have the same control type as the real aircraft, with the same type and length of stick.

3.How do you simulate the different trim types. Some had stab trim which suits a return to center type arrangement such as the joysticks we all use. The majority however had trim tabs that change the stick position. how do you accountant for that in the sim? The shifting of the control curve as mentioned above.

4. How do you simulate the tactit feedback that a pilot gets in relation to G and buffet.

5. Who decides how strong the pilot is. This will become the issue when taking about aircraft with "heavy" controls. Heavy to whom.

This thread of 60 odd pages is like a merry go round.

To discuss the issue without addressing how you would simulate and the issues surrounding doing that, is a waste of %%(#ing time and energy.

You are arguing about degrees yet essentially want the same thing, accuracy. "forest for the trees" comes to mind. This is such a small issue in a sim that has much bigger problems, like aircraft not performing to spec.

For #1, dont make the controls adjustable, the pilot has to adapt to the plane, not the other way around.(only in game adjustments for axes, no native software)

#2, calculate the difference from the different steering columns to a average joystick and use this values for all.

#3, can't be simulated at the moment, same for all, no advantage for anyone.

#4, buffet can be simulated with head shake and g with increasing tunnel vision.

#5, must be 'Joe Average' for all pilots, in a few years maybe a body scan and a computerized fitness test in the setup. (With the body scan some pilots i know couldn't fly 109's anymore )

Just a few ideas, because it is easy to come up with problems, less so with solutions.

[ACE-OF-ACES]

So in summary..

Assuming this is even true..

This is NOT a bug!

It is a limitation of a simulation running on a PC and it associated hardware

Granted, with enough money this could be simulated, and similar things are in million dollar military and commercial simulators

But most of the CoD users can NOT even afford a decent video card, so god knows they are not going to shell out the money for the hardware to simulate this

Long story short, calling this a bug is just not accurate

[CaptainDoggles]

If it's just a limitation of PC hardware, why have you and your cronies been fighting this issue tooth and nail for 70 pages?
If the developers will never implement it, why have you and your cronies been fighting this issue tooth and nail for 70 pages?
If there are more important things to fix, why have you and your cronies been fighting this issue tooth and nail for 70 pages?

The vicious lashing out against this issue and people who support realism in this regard has been eye-opening to say the least.

[ACE-OF-ACES]

Originally Posted by CaptainDoggles

If it's just a limitation of PC hardware, why have you and your cronies been fighting this issue tooth and nail for 70 pages?
If the developers will never implement it, why have you and your cronies been fighting this issue tooth and nail for 70 pages?
If there are more important things to fix, why have you and your cronies been fighting this issue tooth and nail for 70 pages?

Ah, I see where you are confused..

Allow me..

You are confusing me saying this is not a bug with me saying this did not happen in the real world

Two very different things!

All I am pointing out is there are limits to what a $1,000 PC can do!

For example.. As your pulling 4g's in the simulation, your not physically feeling the effects of 4g's while sitting in front of your computer screen

You not feeling the effects of 4g's is NOT a bug but a limitation of what the PC can do (simulate)

Hope this helps! S!

Originally Posted by CaptainDoggles

The vicious lashing out against this issue and people who support realism in this regard has been eye-opening to say the least.

No more eye opening than when the 109 pilots viciously lash out at the mention of the elevator being stuck in cement comes up!

[NZtyphoon]

Originally Posted by robtek

For #1, dont make the controls adjustable, the pilot has to adapt to the plane, not the other way around.(only in game adjustments for axes, no native software)

#2, calculate the difference from the different steering columns to a average joystick and use this values for all.

#3, can't be simulated at the moment, same for all, no advantage for anyone.

#4, buffet can be simulated with head shake and g with increasing tunnel vision.

#5, must be 'Joe Average' for all pilots, in a few years maybe a body scan and a computerized fitness test in the setup. (With the body scan some pilots i know couldn't fly 109's anymore )

Just a few ideas, because it is easy to come up with problems, less so with solutions.

It will be the developers, not the one posting the bug-tracker, who have to make all of these calculations - assuming that there is a uniformity of equipment, and even player styles throughout the IL2 community - while trying to deal with all of the other bugs flowing into the bug-tracker report. I can just see them lining up pleading to tackle this so-called issue...

[CaptainDoggles]

Originally Posted by NZtyphoon

It will be the developers, not the one posting the bug-tracker, who have to make all of these calculations - assuming that there is a uniformity of equipment, and even player styles throughout the IL2 community - while trying to deal with all of the other bugs flowing into the bug-tracker report. I can just see them lining up pleading to tackle this so-called issue...

See my previous post, then. If they're not going to fix it, why have you and your cronies been fighting so hard against it?

[Al Schlageter]

Originally Posted by CaptainDoggles

See my previous post, then. If they're not going to fix it, why have you and your cronies been fighting so hard against it?

Why are you, and your cronies, trying so hard in having it implemented?

It certainly not a bug.

[bolox]

I was staying out of this thread but joysticks/control hardware is something i'm very interested in, See http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=29958
As much as anyone I want 'as realistic as possible' control behaviour, however I see some problems:-

For #1, dont make the controls adjustable, the pilot has to adapt to the plane, not the other way around.(only in game adjustments for axes, no native software)

Bit of a problem here as not all sticks have the same response.
Expensive sticks can have the ability to change curves outside the game(even on the fly). Therefore 'Joe Bloggs' with a 'cheap' stick is at a potential disadvantage. Personally the reduced range of control of sensitivity in CoD compared to IL2 is already quite good at preventing sticks being used in a totally non historic way.
Spiking pots would be a bigger problem

#2, calculate the difference from the different steering columns to a average joystick and use this values for all.

Umm... so someone who spent ~£1700 for a simcontrol spitfire column won't be able to 'tighten' his response to get the new realistic behaviour- or will l'ong stick' users be accused of cheatibg?

#3 opens up a whole can of worms, so I agree, leave it as is

#4, buffet can be simulated with head shake and g with increasing tunnel vision.

good sound cues here also.

#5 A full medical- nah- there'd be hardly anyone left

because it is easy to come up with problems, less so with solutions.

Very much so, but is also often easier to come up with solutions that are worse than the problem

Also, why in this entire thread has no real mention been made of the other two axes?