Updated RAF FMs in 1.07.18301

[Seadog]

RAF turning trials:

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.o...hurri-turn.pdf


no way the 109e can out turn a Hurricane or Spitfire, a result which Kurfurst's recent post regarding Luftwaffe turning trials confirm.

[Glider]

Crumpp
I like this bit. All this quote does is prove that given pilots of equal skill the Spit turned faster.
When the Me.109 was following the Hurricane or Spitfire, it was found that our aircraft turned inside the Me.109 without difficulty when flown by determined pilots who were not afraid to pull their aircraft round hard in a tight turn



Re the books quoted I have read the JG 26 war diary and it as far as I remember didn't confirm that the 109 turned inside the SPitfire. Could be wrong on that but if you find the quote that would help

[klem]

Guys I fell over a post on the A2A Simulations website and it is NOT a reference to 'their' Spitfire but is an article on 'flying the Spitfire'.

What makes it interesting is that it gets away from the simplistic "mine is better than yours" attitude because as many of us know it is impossible to be sure of the circumstances of each aircraft when they meet in combat particularly regarding fuel/weight states, merge airspeeds etc.. Two aircraft as close in basic performance as the Spifire MKI and 109e could possibly reverse turn-capability claims if say under extremely different wing loading conditions and with airspeeds that favour one or other. Combat is never between the bare aircraft off the drawing board and even in compararative tests aircraft states have to be considered when drawing conclusions. Consider also whether you are talking about instantaneous turn rates to get that snap shot or sustained turn rates to wear down the angles and gain a shooting solution.

This link also gives turn rates of various aircraft. I don't know their sources but they make interesting reading and suggest that sources are available somewhere. I expect some 'reds' or 'blues' will disagree with the figures but it does at least make it clear that this is not a simplistic one-size-fits-all question and/or answer.

So here's the link, enjoy....
http://a2asimulations.com/forum/view...p?f=77&t=23909

[Seadog]

Extracted from above link:

SPITFIRE Mk. i

Turn Performance
300mph - 1,000ft 5,000ft 10,000ft 15,000ft
One 360 - 12.2s 13.5s 14.7s -
Two 360s - 24.9s 28.2s 30.3s -

250mph
One 360 - 10.8s 12.8s 13.4s 14.1s
Two 360s - 24.4s 28.2s 29.9s 33.2s

Sustained
No Flaps - 14.8s 16.0s 17.8s 20.8s
Full Flaps - 15.1s 16.4s 18.1s 21.8s
Best Flap - none none none none
Speed/best - 125mph 125mph 125mph 120mph

Corner Speed and Radii (at 1,000ft)
Speed: 215mph
Turn Radius: 342ft

Minimum Sustained Turn Speed: 125mph
“ Turn Radius: 431ft

Corner Times 1,000ft 5,000ft 10,000ft 15,000ft
180 degrees - 5.0s 5.3s 6.0s 6.8s
360 degrees - 11.3s 11.8s 13.2s 15.2s

360º Roll Rate:
150mph: 6.9s
200mph: 5.1s
250mph: 5.7s
300mph: 7.1s
350mph: 10.4s
400mph: 14.6s

Bf-109E-4

Turn Performance
300mph - 1,000ft 5,000ft 10,000ft 15,000ft
One 360 - 12.9s 13.4s 15.4s -
Two 360s - 29.4s 31.2s 35.0s -

250mph
One 360 - 12.9s 13.7s 15.5s 16.7s
Two 360s - 31.0s 32.4s 36.5s 41.2s

Sustained
No Flaps - 18.0s 19.3s 21.2s 24.1s
Full Flaps - 19.0s 19.8s 21.7s 24.8s
Best Flap - none none none none
Speed/best - 120mph 120mph 120mph 115mph

Corner Speed and Radii (at 1,000ft)
Speed: 225mph
Radius: 367ft

Minimum Sustained Turn Speed: 120mph
“ Turn Radius: 503ft

Full Flaps Speed: 100mph
Full Flaps Radius: 442ft

Corner Times 1,000ft 5,000ft 10,000ft 15,000ft
180 degrees - 6.0s 6.4s 6.7s 7.1s
360 degrees - 13.8s 15.4s 15.8s 17.8s

360 º Roll Rate:
150mph: 4.8s
200mph: 4.3s
250mph: 4.2s
300mph: 5.5s
350mph: 7.2s
400mph: 11.9s

Hawker Hurricane Mk I

Turn Performance
300mph - 1,000ft 5,000ft 10,000ft 15,000ft
One 360 - 12.1s 12.4s 13.6s -
Two 360s - 24.2s 25.3s 30.0s -

250mph
One 360 - 10.2s 11.7s 12.9s 15.0s
Two 360s - 23.6s 26.2s 28.5s 33.2s

Sustained
No Flaps - 14.8s 16.4s 18.5s 22.1s
Full Flaps - 14.8s 16.6s 18.4s 22.2s
Best Flap - full full full full
Speed/best 105mph 105mph 100mph 100mph

Corner Speed and Radii (at 1,000ft)
Speed: 200mph
Radius: 291feet

Minimum Sustained Turn Speed: 125mph
“ Turn Radius: 436ft

Full Flaps Speed: 110mph
Full Flaps Radius: 384ft

Corner Times 1,000ft 5,000ft 10,000ft 15,000ft
180 degrees - 4.8s 5.3s 6.2s 6.4s
360 degrees - 10.8s 12.1s 13.3s 14.1s

360º Roll Rate:
150mph: 5.0s
200mph: 4.0s
250mph: 4.3s
300mph: 5.4s
350mph: 7.6s
400mph: 11.6s

Mitsubishi Zero-Sen A6M2 Reisen Model Type 21

Turn Performance
300mph - 1,000ft 5,000ft 10,000ft 15,000ft
One 360 - 11.2s 11.5s 12.5s -
Two 360s - 21.5s 23.2s 25.3s -

250mph
One 360 - 9.8s 10.4s 11.4s 12.5s
Two 360s - 21.6s 22.7s 25.7s 28.8s

Sustained
No Flaps - 13.2s 14.2s 16.7s 18.5s
Full Flaps - 13.5s 15.6s 17.3s 19.6s
Best Flap - none none none none
Speed/best - 100mph 95mph 95mph 95mph

Corner Speed and Radii (at 1,000ft):
Speed: 200mph
Radius: 291ft

Minimum Sustained Turn Speed: 110mph
“ Turn Radius: 339ft

Full Flaps Speed: 95mph
Full Flaps Radius: 299ft

Corner Times 1,000ft 5,000ft 10,000ft 15,000ft
180 degrees - 4.5s 4.7s 5.1s 5.8s
360 degrees - 9.9s 10.2s 11.7s 12.7s

360º Roll Rate:
150mph: 4.9s
200mph: 5.9s
250mph: 6.9s
300mph: 14.8s
350mph: 21.6s
400mph:

[Sammi79]

Thanks Seadog & Klem, very informative post.

Now I'm dreaming of a Mitsubishi Zero...

Patience, grasshopper...

Regards,
Sam.

Originally Posted by Sammi79

Now I'm dreaming of a Mitsubishi Zero...

Until I come with my wildcat ...

[Glider]

Originally Posted by bongodriver

Another reason to doubt your claims to be a pilot, for those of us who do fly recognise the airframes shudders and buffets as 'warnings' of impending stalls and are able to react to them by simply unloading, which in an aircraft with light elevator controls is much easier.

Have to agree with this 100%. In a glider in a stack you fly all the time with your eyes out of the cockpit. As a result and you rely on touch and sound to get the best out of your glider and overtake the other gliders and learning to fly to the warning signs is critical.

Its also a fairly easy thing to teach, it gives the student far more confidence in their abilities and makes it safer for other pilots.

To pretend that its the portent of doom is far from the truth.

As an aside people who highlight that because a high speed stall is loud, that things bang and it can if taken too far cause problems with the structure is only a feature of a Spitfire clearly have no experience of a high speed stall. Guess what, it happens in all aircraft even gliders and all aircraft with have structural failure if pushed too far.

We taught high speed stalls before people were allowed to go solo and it always gets peoples attention. I had an B52 gunner of many years service who thought that his world had come to an end when he first experienced one. However you also teach how to recognise one and avoid it.
In case your interested he brought his pilot along a few weeks later and he was taught how to really fly by another instructor. He got a kick out of going solo before his pilot.

[TomcatViP]

I quite agree with your values Seadog (if it does interest someone)

However the Full flap recommendation with the "best Flap" tag shld be detailed as being the minimal turn radius at slow speed to avoid an obstacle or a collision during airfield operation and NOT a combat procedure.

Split flap are not quite reliable when it comes to pull G what ever your Old IL2 experience teaches you (one thing that I would like so much to stay a thing of the past and being hard coded by the devs - e.g dissimilar operation when G>[2.5; -3] is pulled)

[DC338]

Originally Posted by TomcatViP

I quite agree with your values Seadog (if it does interest someone)

However the Full flap recommendation with the "best Flap" tag shld be detailed as being the minimal turn radius at slow speed to avoid an obstacle or a collision during airfield operation and NOT a combat procedure.

Split flap are not quite reliable when it comes to pull G what ever your Old IL2 experience teaches you (one thing that I would like so much to stay a thing of the past and being hard coded by the devs - e.g dissimilar operation when G>[2.5; -3] is pulled)

Flaps are used in Combat, though as you correctly say not in the same way as was portrayed in IL-2 (which was the one of the faults). Far too much flap use in the sim. Full flap in a spitfire could have been used in a scissors fight as it is a radius not a rate fight. You would have to be Slow however and careful in it's employment as the speed range is small.

[Crumpp]

Another reason to doubt your claims to be a pilot, for those of us who do fly recognise the airframes shudders and buffets as 'warnings' of impending stalls and are able to react to them by simply unloading, which in an aircraft with light elevator controls is much easier.

Good lord...

Read the NACA report and the POH.

Stall warning is not the same as stall behavior. You should know that without explaination.

All this quote does is prove that given pilots of equal skill the Spit turned faster.

You people are paraniod about your gameshapes!!

Read my first post. The physics is what it is glider. You cannot change it.

The same physics that dictates the turn rates also dictates the stability and control.

The NACA had a measurable standard.