Updated RAF FMs in 1.07.18301

[Glider]

A lot of words that try to hide the fact that you cannot support your statement with any published books. Its worth remembering that it was you that first suggested that we use books. You suggested that we use real books, I always do and its good advice as you can see from my reply.

I also supported my statements with quotes from official German flight tests and quotes from expert German fighter pilots. The books are quoted and the full report available on Kurfursts web site. Hardly a wall of fantastical documents hammered en masse by all the Gang all very relevent and from both sides of the conflict.

You asked me to support my statement and I did. I asked you to support yours and you didn't. Its a common pattern we have seen before.

Another habit of yours is putting words in my mouth which are not true. PLease quote where I have ever, here or anywhere, said that I consider the 190 to be anything but exceptional in 1941/2.

[Glider]

I should add that I do consider myself to be an experienced glider pilot. I went solo at 16 and flew for about 20 years until I had to stop about 10 years ago for medical reasons.

Also had some limited hours P2 (about 35) in powered aircraft of various types

[Crumpp]

Start with this one:

http://www.amazon.com/Luftwaffe-Figh.../dp/0804116962

then:

http://www.amazon.com/JG-26-War-Diar.../dp/1898697523

then:

http://www.schifferbooks.com/newschi...sbn=0764301756

Pretty much take your pick of any of the Luftwaffe histories.

[Crumpp]

I asked you to support yours and you didn't.

He did support it.

[Hood]

Just some general observations.

Pilots were taught not to stall, so that must have led to an in-built reluctance to push at the flight envelope. Those that could push closer to the limit could turn faster.

Turn rate can mean several things. The fastest turn rate can be incredibly quick but the resulting loss of energy means trouble. Continuous turn rate without loss of energy is usually quite a bit higher but as energy is retained that helps further manouevres.

As an example (and from memory of something I did a long time ago) I could turn a Spit Vb 360 degrees in about 12 seconds but was then at stall speed. Turning 360 degrees at a maintained 250mph took about 20 seconds with a far wider turning circle.

If I were in a Spit maintaining 250mph in a turn I bet a 109 could turn inside, but if they missed the shot they have less energy. From memory again I think the best turn/energy ratio for a Spit was about 220mph with a turn of around 18 seconds. At the same speed a 109 took 21 seconds to do 360 degrees.

Finally, I seem to remember that the best way of turning in a 109 against a Spit is to do an elliptical turn i.e. to have a smooth curve to gain energy followed by a tight turn, kinda egg-shaped.

Or to put it more simply. All things being equal, if you're in a 109 don't turn with a Spit - there is nothing to stop a Spit pilot totally pushing the envelope as only our ego is hurt if we pull to hard and stall, we don't die.

Just ramblin'

Hood

[Glider]

Crumpp
I like this bit. All this quote does is prove that given pilots of equal skill the Spit turned faster.
When the Me.109 was following the Hurricane or Spitfire, it was found that our aircraft turned inside the Me.109 without difficulty when flown by determined pilots who were not afraid to pull their aircraft round hard in a tight turn



Re the books quoted I have read the JG 26 war diary and it as far as I remember didn't confirm that the 109 turned inside the SPitfire. Could be wrong on that but if you find the quote that would help

[klem]

Guys I fell over a post on the A2A Simulations website and it is NOT a reference to 'their' Spitfire but is an article on 'flying the Spitfire'.

What makes it interesting is that it gets away from the simplistic "mine is better than yours" attitude because as many of us know it is impossible to be sure of the circumstances of each aircraft when they meet in combat particularly regarding fuel/weight states, merge airspeeds etc.. Two aircraft as close in basic performance as the Spifire MKI and 109e could possibly reverse turn-capability claims if say under extremely different wing loading conditions and with airspeeds that favour one or other. Combat is never between the bare aircraft off the drawing board and even in compararative tests aircraft states have to be considered when drawing conclusions. Consider also whether you are talking about instantaneous turn rates to get that snap shot or sustained turn rates to wear down the angles and gain a shooting solution.

This link also gives turn rates of various aircraft. I don't know their sources but they make interesting reading and suggest that sources are available somewhere. I expect some 'reds' or 'blues' will disagree with the figures but it does at least make it clear that this is not a simplistic one-size-fits-all question and/or answer.

So here's the link, enjoy....
http://a2asimulations.com/forum/view...p?f=77&t=23909

[Seadog]

Extracted from above link:

SPITFIRE Mk. i

Turn Performance
300mph - 1,000ft 5,000ft 10,000ft 15,000ft
One 360 - 12.2s 13.5s 14.7s -
Two 360s - 24.9s 28.2s 30.3s -

250mph
One 360 - 10.8s 12.8s 13.4s 14.1s
Two 360s - 24.4s 28.2s 29.9s 33.2s

Sustained
No Flaps - 14.8s 16.0s 17.8s 20.8s
Full Flaps - 15.1s 16.4s 18.1s 21.8s
Best Flap - none none none none
Speed/best - 125mph 125mph 125mph 120mph

Corner Speed and Radii (at 1,000ft)
Speed: 215mph
Turn Radius: 342ft

Minimum Sustained Turn Speed: 125mph
“ Turn Radius: 431ft

Corner Times 1,000ft 5,000ft 10,000ft 15,000ft
180 degrees - 5.0s 5.3s 6.0s 6.8s
360 degrees - 11.3s 11.8s 13.2s 15.2s

360º Roll Rate:
150mph: 6.9s
200mph: 5.1s
250mph: 5.7s
300mph: 7.1s
350mph: 10.4s
400mph: 14.6s

Bf-109E-4

Turn Performance
300mph - 1,000ft 5,000ft 10,000ft 15,000ft
One 360 - 12.9s 13.4s 15.4s -
Two 360s - 29.4s 31.2s 35.0s -

250mph
One 360 - 12.9s 13.7s 15.5s 16.7s
Two 360s - 31.0s 32.4s 36.5s 41.2s

Sustained
No Flaps - 18.0s 19.3s 21.2s 24.1s
Full Flaps - 19.0s 19.8s 21.7s 24.8s
Best Flap - none none none none
Speed/best - 120mph 120mph 120mph 115mph

Corner Speed and Radii (at 1,000ft)
Speed: 225mph
Radius: 367ft

Minimum Sustained Turn Speed: 120mph
“ Turn Radius: 503ft

Full Flaps Speed: 100mph
Full Flaps Radius: 442ft

Corner Times 1,000ft 5,000ft 10,000ft 15,000ft
180 degrees - 6.0s 6.4s 6.7s 7.1s
360 degrees - 13.8s 15.4s 15.8s 17.8s

360 º Roll Rate:
150mph: 4.8s
200mph: 4.3s
250mph: 4.2s
300mph: 5.5s
350mph: 7.2s
400mph: 11.9s

Hawker Hurricane Mk I

Turn Performance
300mph - 1,000ft 5,000ft 10,000ft 15,000ft
One 360 - 12.1s 12.4s 13.6s -
Two 360s - 24.2s 25.3s 30.0s -

250mph
One 360 - 10.2s 11.7s 12.9s 15.0s
Two 360s - 23.6s 26.2s 28.5s 33.2s

Sustained
No Flaps - 14.8s 16.4s 18.5s 22.1s
Full Flaps - 14.8s 16.6s 18.4s 22.2s
Best Flap - full full full full
Speed/best 105mph 105mph 100mph 100mph

Corner Speed and Radii (at 1,000ft)
Speed: 200mph
Radius: 291feet

Minimum Sustained Turn Speed: 125mph
“ Turn Radius: 436ft

Full Flaps Speed: 110mph
Full Flaps Radius: 384ft

Corner Times 1,000ft 5,000ft 10,000ft 15,000ft
180 degrees - 4.8s 5.3s 6.2s 6.4s
360 degrees - 10.8s 12.1s 13.3s 14.1s

360º Roll Rate:
150mph: 5.0s
200mph: 4.0s
250mph: 4.3s
300mph: 5.4s
350mph: 7.6s
400mph: 11.6s

Mitsubishi Zero-Sen A6M2 Reisen Model Type 21

Turn Performance
300mph - 1,000ft 5,000ft 10,000ft 15,000ft
One 360 - 11.2s 11.5s 12.5s -
Two 360s - 21.5s 23.2s 25.3s -

250mph
One 360 - 9.8s 10.4s 11.4s 12.5s
Two 360s - 21.6s 22.7s 25.7s 28.8s

Sustained
No Flaps - 13.2s 14.2s 16.7s 18.5s
Full Flaps - 13.5s 15.6s 17.3s 19.6s
Best Flap - none none none none
Speed/best - 100mph 95mph 95mph 95mph

Corner Speed and Radii (at 1,000ft):
Speed: 200mph
Radius: 291ft

Minimum Sustained Turn Speed: 110mph
“ Turn Radius: 339ft

Full Flaps Speed: 95mph
Full Flaps Radius: 299ft

Corner Times 1,000ft 5,000ft 10,000ft 15,000ft
180 degrees - 4.5s 4.7s 5.1s 5.8s
360 degrees - 9.9s 10.2s 11.7s 12.7s

360º Roll Rate:
150mph: 4.9s
200mph: 5.9s
250mph: 6.9s
300mph: 14.8s
350mph: 21.6s
400mph:

[Sammi79]

Thanks Seadog & Klem, very informative post.

Now I'm dreaming of a Mitsubishi Zero...

Patience, grasshopper...

Regards,
Sam.