Soviet fighters and 4.12

[jermin]

I fly as Raven online. I think both Z1024 and WokeUpDead should recognize me as once a frequent visitor in RCAF_FB_Server. (Yeah, I know it's an open-pit arcade server. But that was the only well-populated server I could find on HY (I play stock game), though I always fly with cockpit closed there).

In a air-quake server (actually most popular servers you can find on Xfire now are of this type), in which the main bases of both sides are within the same grid and icons & external views are turned on and cockipt turned off, I would say Soviet fighters does enjoy an advantage, no matter what planeset the mission uses.

But I could still live with it before 4.11 was out. Because most red uber-plane fliers are not comparable with me in skills. I was still able to constantly shoot down M71-equipped I185s and Yak-3P (most of which with cockpit open) in my beloved Bf-109K4C3. But in 4.11, the situation aggravated. MW50-enabled engines overheated way too quickly. As for late-war 109s and 190s, engine would be damaged within 4 minutes of continuous 110% throttle use with MW50 enabled. I had to get out of the battlefield and cool my engine every 3 assault passes because without MW50, German planes were only sitting ducks. But the time needed for this to happen before 4.11 was about 10 minutes, which coincided with the data provided by the community. In 4.11.1 the time is only prolonged by 1 minute, which is still 5 minutes short.

I love every enhancement TD did to the game in 4.11, especially the 6DOF feature, except the engine overheat model. It had negated all the efforts Oleg made to perfect the game, which he cherished as his son. I believe Oleg had done a lot of researching when trying to model the engine system of every plane to correctly represents its real-life counterpart. It should not be easily negated without giving cogent proofs.

I'm not saying what you guys have done is wrong. And I really appreciate your efforts to elevate this longstanding title to a whole new level. But IL2 does not only belongs to 1C and/or TD. It belongs to the entire community. We have rights, as well as obligations, to keep the game alive.

And I have to say, patches 4.11 and 4.111 are somewhat dragging the already sinking ship towards a vortex. German planes are indeed more negatively affected than allied ones by those patches. The game's life will come to an end when all German pilots are quitting this game, which is already happening from my point of view. At that time, any enhancement you make for the game will be meaningless.

I hope you can roll back the FM of Fw-190s and the overheat model to those in 4.101 and provide evidences to support every change you made to the game since 4.10, especially FM wise.

[gaunt1]

I think engine overheat & damage is more or less OK for german planes (to be honest, I only fly bombers and the bf-110 from the german side). The problem is that it isnt simulated on all aircrafts, especially on soviet ones. For example, the VK-107 engine was quite prone to overheat in RL, and when it overheated, engine seizure came very quickly due to the extremely poor lubrication. (should be simulated) ASh-82 engines didnt overheat too much in RL as far as I know, but they should do it a tiny bit more often ingame. The other problem is that the FM of some planes (La-5 & 7 series for example) is modeled after the prototypes. With that performance, they dont have to run their engines @ 110% much. (against all 190As, and some 109s, I dont have to use "Forsazh" at all in my La-5FN, except if my opponent has energy advantage)

[Woke Up Dead]

Originally Posted by jermin

I fly as Raven online. I think both Z1024 and WokeUpDead should recognize me as once a frequent visitor in RCAF_FB_Server.

[...]

I was still able to constantly shoot down M71-equipped I185s and Yak-3P (most of which with cockpit open) in my beloved Bf-109K4C3. But in 4.11, the situation aggravated. MW50-enabled engines overheated way too quickly. As for late-war 109s and 190s, engine would be damaged within 4 minutes of continuous 110% throttle use with MW50 enabled. I had to get out of the battlefield and cool my engine every 3 assault passes because without MW50, German planes were only sitting ducks. But the time needed for this to happen before 4.11 was about 10 minutes, which coincided with the data provided by the community. In 4.11.1 the time is only prolonged by 1 minute, which is still 5 minutes short.

And I have to say, patches 4.11 and 4.111 are somewhat dragging the already sinking ship towards a vortex. German planes are indeed more negatively affected than allied ones by those patches. The game's life will come to an end when all German pilots are quitting this game, which is already happening from my point of view. At that time, any enhancement you make for the game will be meaningless.

Hey Jermin, I do recognize you from RCAF, you're pretty good in that 109K. But the first part of your argument, if I could paraphrase it, is basically "I don't like this patch because it does not allow me to dominate like I used to in the one plane I like to fly." Is it realistic, or historically accurate (which is what I'm told this game tries to be) for you to be able to do that in the first place? Were single 109K pilots able to stay in a long engagement with single Yak-3s and win more often than not? Or did they do what Hartmann did: strike quickly, preferably not alone, once maybe twice, and then get out of there?

Back during patch 4.09 days, one of my favourite planes to fly was the P-11c. I'd love to get into dogfights with anything and watch 20mm and 30mm cannon shells bounce right of the P-11's oversimplified damage model. They fixed that in 4.10, and I was severely disappointed to find out that I was no longer able to dangle in front of a 190's nose without consequences. But as tough as Polish metal is (the P-11 was all-metal!), that change was probably accurate, and it didn't drive Polish pilots away from this sim. If you can't do what you used to be able to do in your favourite plane anymore, then get another favourite plane or adjust tactics.

I know RCAF is the only 4.11 server with decent numbers late at night Pacific time (Skies of Valor also does well then, but it's still 4.10), but that is the absolute toughest and most unfair server to judge plane balance on, because it has an "All vs All" plane-set. So you get I-I85s vs Ta's. Or Zeros vs 190s. Or Yaks vs Yaks. And then people complain that their blue 1945 hot-rods (that historically had problems because of materials shortages and quality of slave labour) don't perform as well against red 1942 hot-rods that had engine problems and only flew as prototypes till 1943.

I'm all for making changes based on good evidence; the La-7 changes being proposed in the other thread look really good for example. But it feels like some in this thread are saying "in this particular year, my plane A does not do as well against plane B as it did in the last patch, please hobble plane B." You may have to accept that the changes made in 4.11 are accurate, and that your plane A really should not have been as good against plane B as it was in 4.10.

[Shardur]

While I'm not sure about the flight model in reference to speed, climb or turn since I don't have enough data (especially for the last two, finding speed numbers is easier) and also are not entirely sure what all the numbers are in game, I am very certain the fast overheating for the German planes is not historical.

I actually remember seeing links to test/technical data for the engines heat produced and the radiator effectiveness on this very forum (But I sadly can't find it right now). If I recall correct the data there showed that the full open radiator would actually absorb more heat than the engine produced in a climb.

There was also a very big discussion not so long ago about the MW50 boost, that should have shown to everybody reading it, that full power flight with MW50 boost enabled on WEP power setting was officially allowed for 10min at a time and could be sustained for a total of 27min (after which time the MW50 fuel would run out) with 7min durations in between at lower power settings. The problem after 10min also seems to be not so much the heat but rather the stress on the engine produced by the high power setting. Military power was allowed for 30min at a time.
A lot of the data can be found somewhere on this page: http://kurfurst.org/

I really see IL-2 as a simulator and would like to have FMs as accurate as possible, but with the current state of some planes FM I would settle for a faster "closer to reality than it was" fix rather than wait around for a very long time for a "very very close to the actual plane" fix.

[gaunt1]

Hi!

Sorry for necroing this thread. I was bored, and made speed charts for La-5, La-5F and La-5FN, based on the MBI book. First, sorry for poor design of the charts. Supercharger switch altitudes are based on the data from IL-2 compare 4.11, since the MBI book provides speed data only @ 0m and 6500m.
Interesting, the vanilla La-5F is quite close to its real counterpart up to 3500-4000m, while the La-5 and La-5FN are totally off!

Strange, but on the IL-2 compare chart, above 4000m, the WEP speed data is valid for the game, I dont know why.

[JZG_Con]

I've always felt the axis aircraft were tonned down , we all know our history , but remember this flight sim has come a long way , now with HSFX 6.1 it might start getting better for us all ..me I'm 99% blue ... , but I won't give up .

[1984]

start - 2 min, now - 5 min...

not bad... something like progress...


manual for la-5fn (spring'44=old sparking-plugs, for early and maybe late engines) - Не более 5 мин. при общей продолжительности работы мотора до переборки не более 6 час.

manual for la-7 (autumn'44=NEW sparking-plugs, for late engines, maybe + another design too) - Не более 10 мин. при общей продолжительности работы мотора до переборки не более 6 час.