Man Made Global Warming

[MadBlaster]

Originally Posted by MD_Titus

how is any of that bad?

It's bad because people that choose to smoke already know of the risk by now. They have been very aware for a very long time. Common sense tells you when you stand in a smoky room and you start coughing and your eyes water, not good. Don't need a researcher to tell me that. And yes, lung cancer comes in many forms from many causes. So, special tax on the painters? The coal miners? The wind? This is California doing the double dip because the state is pro liberal/socialist and by nature they are completely fiscally irresponsible and they saw this as an easy way to steal some more money and pander to the dimwits that live here, to make up for declines in the other cigs tax revenue streams. The part you didn't post.

per wiki
"Approximately $75 million annually would have maintained existing tobacco tax revenue streams. The objective here was to avoid negatively impacting other revenue streams from other cigarette taxes such as from Proposition 99 (1988 ) and Proposition 10 (1998 ). "

See, already taxed many times over. So, how much of the part you posted would have gone to fund the wild BBQs parties and pretty interns on short term contracts I wonder?

Originally Posted by MD_Titus

2. this is how science works. they keep on testing things, and when...

hum dee dum. Go back and google the marlboro man. that was a long time ago. they have been stretching this thing all that time. get a clue. The antacid thing, just another $50 light-bulb scheme.

Research is fine, but it should be subject to rules of cost/benefit. Not guise for money grab to fix irresponsible state spending. wait, what???

[camber]

Originally Posted by MadBlaster

See, already taxed many times over. So, how much of the part you posted would have gone to fund the wild BBQs parties and pretty interns on short term contracts I wonder?

hahaha, serves me right for telling jokes about my career To clarify, the pretty STUDENTs are unpaid. The BBQ parties are not very wild, outside working hours, and rely upon steaks and beer paid for out of modest scientist salaries

Originally Posted by MadBlaster

hum dee dum. Go back and google the marlboro man. that was a long time ago. they have been stretching this thing all that time. get a clue. The antacid thing, just another $50 light-bulb scheme.

Research is fine, but it should be subject to rules of cost/benefit. Not guise for money grab to fix irresponsible state spending. wait, what???

But actually you make a good point. I often wonder in Australia, what would happen if we just stopped research? Some research seems to show diminishing returns. We (scientists) have to convince society that we are worth funding, so health gets a big proportion. My society (and hence govt) kind of accidently then puts a perverse incentive on what we do. We must do something that is totally groundbreaking, but has a very high chance of success (which is a paradox). The successful high level scientists (not me ) must generate grant proposals that SOUND groundbreaking but are ACTUALLY rather incremental. To their credit, there is then the possibility to do groundbreaking, risky work on the "down low" on equipments already paid for to do kind of boring stuff. At one point I knew of two researchers running cold fusion in their spare time after it was majorly discredited. I never heard anything new so it musn't have gone anywhere.

Some health research has gone down this path imo. But society likes to have the tools to respond to big problems when they arrive, and a competent scientist group is a pretty good one, even with the BBQ situation. For example, it is not well known that an antibiotic crisis is relatively likely in the near future. This is due to unregulated capitalism...the ubiquitous pointless unregulated use of front line antibiotics in Asia and the ability to use antibiotics to get 0.1%s of extra profit margin from livestock growth for food production.

When a healthy young member of your family dies in a US city hospital getting a minor wound dressed (from antibiotic resistant bacteria), and many other families are having the same experience, the scientist currently fattening rats and knocking them on the head to study diabetes has a rather useful set of skills.

camber

[MadBlaster]

Lol. So your still reading this garbage?

Your point about the antibiotic, good. There's another one on the horizon you probably know about.

http://naturalsociety.com/sunscreen-...out-sunscreen/

[=CfC= Father Ted]

Originally Posted by MadBlaster

Research is fine, but it should be subject to rules of cost/benefit.

So who should make these rules? Obviously not governments, because they just use the results to make policy which robs the man in the street, so who else?


The only way to really arrive at the "truth" in the scientific arena is to fund blue sky (sorry Titus) research, where it's the idea that's important, not who's right or wrong, or who stands to gain/lose from the findings.

[MadBlaster]

Originally Posted by =CfC= Father Ted

So who should make these rules? Obviously not governments, because they just use the results to make policy which robs the man in the street, so who else?

The only way to really arrive at the "truth" in the scientific arena is to fund blue sky (sorry Titus) research, where it's the idea that's important, not who's right or wrong, or who stands to gain/lose from the findings.

I would say it boils down to the capitalists way verses the socialists way. I tend to think blue sky is fallacy because even the researchers have a self interest...(e.g., reputations, egos, salaries,...etc). The politics enter into it no matter what. Take example, NASA. Funded by tax dollars, contracts out to private sector, enages in space exploration and outreach to muslims. One president say we are going to the moon again, the other says we are going to mars or whatever

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/s...feel-good.html

In reality, it's a muddling through to get the real answers. Just look at "physics", aristotle to present day. Even back in aristotle days there was politics in getting to the truth on gravity.

I would also say this w/cost benefit...the timing of when and what to do w/ research matters a lot. Needs/economies of the people are constantly changing. In the good times, it makes sense to pursue the less urgent risks. So, in usa, we do this by voting every few years to fine tune the agenda of the research, changes in public funding. Also, people are certainly free to fund whatever they want whenever they want with private dollars.

[MD_Titus]

Originally Posted by MadBlaster

It's bad because people that choose to smoke already know of the risk by now. They have been very aware for a very long time. Common sense tells you when you stand in a smoky room and you start coughing and your eyes water, not good. Don't need a researcher to tell me that. And yes, lung cancer comes in many forms from many causes. So, special tax on the painters? The coal miners? The wind? This is California doing the double dip because the state is pro liberal/socialist and by nature they are completely fiscally irresponsible and they saw this as an easy way to steal some more money and pander to the dimwits that live here, to make up for declines in the other cigs tax revenue streams. The part you didn't post.

per wiki
"Approximately $75 million annually would have maintained existing tobacco tax revenue streams. The objective here was to avoid negatively impacting other revenue streams from other cigarette taxes such as from Proposition 99 (1988 ) and Proposition 10 (1998 ). "

See, already taxed many times over. So, how much of the part you posted would have gone to fund the wild BBQs parties and pretty interns on short term contracts I wonder?




hum dee dum. Go back and google the marlboro man. that was a long time ago. they have been stretching this thing all that time. get a clue. The antacid thing, just another $50 light-bulb scheme.

Research is fine, but it should be subject to rules of cost/benefit. Not guise for money grab to fix irresponsible state spending. wait, what???

it's not about finding out that smoking is dangerous, it's about TREATING THE DISEASES ASSOCIATED WITH IT. palliative care, chemotherapy, radiotherapy, lost working hours, hospital care... these things are all a massive drain on the health system so paying for the increased cost through taxation of the people who cause the increased expenditure is, basically, pretty fair. non-smokers are not contributing to the care of those who put themselves at risk. that some non-smokers also contract these diseases through no fault of their own and will benefit from advances in treatment or prevention is not a bad thing. how can you fail to make this simple connection? the state also explicitly lays out how they will spend this increased revenue, and that it will almost entirely go towards research for smoking - and in a small part non-smoking - related diseases and smoking cessation. put a burden on the health system by your activity, be it driving without a seatbelt and paralysing yourself or engaging in a demonstrably risky habit, and it seems fair that you contribute to the cost through taxation. as less people smoke the income from lower taxes is reduced, but the costs do not appreciably decrease in providing cancer care units.

Originally Posted by =CfC= Father Ted

So who should make these rules? Obviously not governments, because they just use the results to make policy which robs the man in the street, so who else?


The only way to really arrive at the "truth" in the scientific arena is to fund blue sky (sorry Titus) research, where it's the idea that's important, not who's right or wrong, or who stands to gain/lose from the findings.

house!

Originally Posted by MadBlaster

I would say it boils down to the capitalists way verses the socialists way. I tend to think blue sky is fallacy because even the researchers have a self interest...(e.g., reputations, egos, salaries,...etc). The politics enter into it no matter what. Take example, NASA. Funded by tax dollars, contracts out to private sector, enages in space exploration and outreach to muslims. One president say we are going to the moon again, the other says we are going to mars or whatever

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/s...feel-good.html

In reality, it's a muddling through to get the real answers. Just look at "physics", aristotle to present day. Even back in aristotle days there was politics in getting to the truth on gravity.

I would also say this w/cost benefit...the timing of when and what to do w/ research matters a lot. Needs/economies of the people are constantly changing. In the good times, it makes sense to pursue the less urgent risks. So, in usa, we do this by voting every few years to fine tune the agenda of the research, changes in public funding. Also, people are certainly free to fund whatever they want whenever they want with private dollars.

please don't use the telegraph as a source for anything, it's up there with the daily heil as being biased to the point of irrelevant. to paraphrase, put that paper down and never open it again.

"physics", interesting use of quotation marks there. is physics a scam? do you get the scientific methodology at all, or are you just bringing a load of pre-conceived notions about "science" to the party and refusing to actually learn anything?

nasa is a highly politicised agency and always has been, in that it was originally conceived for the dick waving contest the USA and USSR were engaging in. it continues to be a tool for politicians, ala bush and obama saying they are going to do big and exciting things with it.

[MadBlaster]

Originally Posted by MD_Titus

it's not about finding out that smoking is dangerous, it's about TREATING THE DISEASES ASSOCIATED WITH IT...

Then just ban smoking. Stop using it as gravy train to make your living and then put a halo on yourself as god's gift to man. I didn't even mention the federal taxes that are already on cigs. They (the "researchers" or whatever you want to call that crowd) had the option to put out a proposition to simply ban smoking. They didn't do that because they are hypocrites. Instead they partnered up with the state to do a money grab. Apparently, it is not going to pass.

Originally Posted by MD_Titus

please don't use the telegraph as a source for anything, it's up there with the daily heil

the story was widely reported in various news vehicles. I just happened to link to that one as fyi. the story refers to originally reported in al jahzeera article.

Originally Posted by MD_Titus

"physics", interesting use of quotation marks there. is physics a scam? do you get the scientific methodology at all, or are you

read the first couple chapters of the book "understanding physics" by issac asminov. iirc, somewhere in there he poses the question w/ falling bodies - why was it no one simply crumpled the piece of paper when it was dropped? yes, I get it. that's why I brought it up. understanding physics, different relative to age of aristotle, different relative to age of galileo, different relative to age of einstein...etc.

Originally Posted by MD_Titus

nasa is a highly politicised agency and always has been,

exactly my point. you can't take the self-interest/political out of it, imo. "blue sky" is fallacy, imo. the politics get in eventually, not matter the original intent.

[MD_Titus]

to ban it is to remove the choice. surely you're all for freedom of choice? it's not about people using it as a gravy train, it's about recognising people's right to freedom of choice, freedom to smoke, whilst mitigating it's harmful effects. i would imagine that a vote to ban smoking altogether would be beaten back all the more comprehensively than a vote to increase tax on tobacco.

please stop misusing quotation marks though, it makes you look silly. as does saying that reading the first couple of chapters of a single book means you understand scientific methodology. it's not different relative to the age, it's a progression and evolution of understanding through cumulative knowledge and experience. it's not "muddling through", it's producing theory and models based on evidence, testing them and refining them or throwing them out altogether if they are unproven. "muddling through" makes it sound like it's made up on the fly.

you are right that you cannot take self-interest/politics out of it altogether, but to say that those are the main motivators in all scientific endeavour is a gross error.

[MadBlaster]

Well, we will just have to disagree about their real motivations. I stand by my opinion. If the government and researchers of smoking really wanted to solve the problem, they would stop trying to provide a get out of jail card to the smokers. Instead, they choose to enable and feed off them with promise of get out of jail card. That is hypocrisy and scam. If they really wanted it to stop, they would refuse to treat smokers and/or seek to ban it. Simply require a law to have the smokers sign a waiver from cost of their health cares related to smoking. Then they bear all the costs of their choice and the non-smokers don't have to share it. Very simple. But then you have bunch of idle researchers with nothing to do and we can't have that. Nor can we have the government lose a revenue stream.

Okay, i'm out of this thread. I grow tired trying to explain that 2+2=4 and titus jump in to tell me that '+' means to add.

[jimson8]

Originally Posted by MD_Titus

it's not about finding out that smoking is dangerous, it's about TREATING THE DISEASES ASSOCIATED WITH IT. palliative care, chemotherapy, radiotherapy, lost working hours, hospital care... these things are all a massive drain on the health system so paying for the increased cost through taxation of the people who cause the increased expenditure is, basically, pretty fair. non-smokers are not contributing to the care of those who put themselves at risk. that some non-smokers also contract these diseases through no fault of their own and will benefit from advances in treatment or prevention is not a bad thing. how can you fail to make this simple connection? the state also explicitly lays out how they will spend this increased revenue, and that it will almost entirely go towards research for smoking - and in a small part non-smoking - related diseases and smoking cessation. put a burden on the health system by your activity, be it driving without a seatbelt and paralysing yourself or engaging in a demonstrably risky habit, and it seems fair that you contribute to the cost through taxation. as less people smoke the income from lower taxes is reduced, but the costs do not appreciably decrease in providing cancer care units.

I'm good with it, as long as you also tax motorcycle riders for the drain on society for trauma care, also those with other physically dangerous hobbies, those who don't exercise and of course those who do because of sports related injuries and you would want to institute a gay tax for the past if not present costs associated with HIV infection.