Hurricane & Spitfire control characteristics

[Robo.]

Originally Posted by 6S.Manu

The only advise I was giving to you is to rethink about the importance of the aerobatic ability in a fighter plane: by quotes and interviews those pilots seem agree with me.

I believe Osprey's point was that the aerobatic ability of my aircraft becomes extremely important when I encounter enemy whose speed, climb and rollrate is superior to mine.

[Bewolf]

Originally Posted by Robo.

I believe Osprey's point was that the aerobatic ability of my aircraft becomes extremely important when I encounter enemy whose speed, climb and rollrate is superior to mine.

In a defensive way, yes, but there also only to a certain point.

Case in point is the war in the Pacific, where two philosophies regarding air war clashed. The japanese, with a focus on individual skill in very aerobatic planes vs. the US, standing for team tactics and planes more greared for speed.

The outcome was pretty clear.

The problem with maneuvering is that it costs energy. That is something no fighter pilot wants to give up just so, especially in a sky swarming with enemy fighters.
Now we all know you often find yourself in a situation where you have no chance but to give up energy to get a mission done, and in those cases good maneuverability has its merits.
But in general something already went terrible wrong when you have to employ tight turns in airwar, and good aerobatics won't offset the advantage of a faster plane to engage and disengage at will. It will maintain the initiative, while the aerobatic plane cannot act, just react.

That, btw, is one major and very obvious reason why both the Spitfire and the 109 in their later marks went for more speed, not more maneuverability.

[Robo.]

Originally Posted by Bewolf

In a defensive way, yes, but there also only to a certain point. (..)

Absolutely. But the exactly the defensive way was very important for the RAF. Due to 109 characteristics, the LW fighters do have initiative in the sim. I really had to practice evasive actions and get better at the defensive tactics in order to be succesful RAF pilot in the sim (= survive and meet mission goal + do some damage if possible). Yes, I can cruise at 18k at ATAG and pick my fights, but usually, there are ground targets to defend and you simply don't have the option of having an energy advantage all the times, just like the real pilots. Hence my point with aerobatic characteristics being useful sometimes, it's in fact the only characteristics where RAF fighters excel but the game does not seem to reflect this.

I agree completely with what you say about fighter development and speed vs. maneuvrability doctrine, good post btw, there is no problem with that. It's just I am staying at BoB topic and I am concerned about the reality depicted in the sim, not the actual WWII.

[Bewolf]

Originally Posted by Robo.

Absolutely. But the exactly the defensive way was very important for the RAF. Due to 109 characteristics, the LW fighters do have initiative in the sim. I really had to practice evasive actions and get better at the defensive tactics in order to be succesful RAF pilot in the sim (= survive and meet mission goal + do some damage if possible). Yes, I can cruise at 18k at ATAG and pick my fights, but usually, there are ground targets to defend and you simply don't have the option of having an energy advantage all the times, just like the real pilots. Hence my point with aerobatic characteristics being useful sometimes, it's in fact the only characteristics where RAF fighters excel but the game does not seem to reflect this.

I agree completely with what you say about fighter development and speed vs. maneuvrability doctrine, good post btw, there is no problem with that. It's just I am staying at BoB topic and I am concerned about the reality depicted in the sim, not the actual WWII.

I am not so sure if that really is the case. Many people confuse tight turning ability with maneuverability in general. The first case, I agree, the Spit (and Hurri) have the advantage. But in a close in dogfight that does not just involve flying circles around each other, but all kind of maneuvers using all 3 axis of space, things like acceleration, roll rate, climb rate and mass inertia also play a huge, if not even bigger role.
Here the 109 actually has the edge even in a 1:1, if, and that is a big IF, the pilot knows what he is doing. A better weight to hp ratio and less drag in the 109 does not hurt that plane, either.

Fact is, the 109, despite it's advantages, is rather easy to fly, but it takes a lot of time and expirience to master it. But here we all are pros after years of flight simming. So I do not really wonder about your expiriences.

[bongodriver]

When the 109 is cornered into a slow turning fight and its leading edge devices are deployed it has lots of induced drag from the slats, the spitfire does much better in that enviroment.

[Robo.]

Originally Posted by Bewolf

I am not so sure if that really is the case. Many people confuse tight turning ability with maneuverability in general.

Yes but I do not. My point was that at this moment, the Hurricane is almost as fast as 109 and 109 is able to outturn a Hurricane. What I am saying is that the game does not reflect the known real life characteristics all that well. (we'll see how it will be after the patch).

I understand what you're saying though and I agree - give me a fast plane that climbs and rolls well and I am a happy fighter pilot

[Bewolf]

Originally Posted by Robo.

Yes but I do not. My point was that at this moment, the Hurricane is almost as fast as 109 and 109 is able to outturn a Hurricane. What I am saying is that the game does not reflect the known real life characteristics all that well. (we'll see how it will be after the patch).

I understand what you're saying though and I agree - give me a fast plane that climbs and rolls well and I am a happy fighter pilot

You are waiting for the 190, I see ; )

But yeah, I was talking generally, not CloD specific. In here I completly agree to your points.

[Kurfürst]

Originally Posted by Robo.

Absolutely. But the exactly the defensive way was very important for the RAF. Due to 109 characteristics, the LW fighters do have initiative in the sim. I really had to practice evasive actions and get better at the defensive tactics in order to be succesful RAF pilot in the sim (= survive and meet mission goal + do some damage if possible). Yes, I can cruise at 18k at ATAG and pick my fights, but usually, there are ground targets to defend and you simply don't have the option of having an energy advantage all the times, just like the real pilots. Hence my point with aerobatic characteristics being useful sometimes, it's in fact the only characteristics where RAF fighters excel but the game does not seem to reflect this.

The RAF itself had a very disillusioning view of the usefulness of aerobatics in air combat. The following is from the Spitfire II Pilots manual.

In view of this, personally, I find it rather ironic all these Mike on his site for example goes into great lenght about how excellent the Spitfire's aerobatic qualities were compared to the 109E (he quotes the same manual which a few pages later flatly states that aerobatics are useless as combat manouvers). What does it help you in combat if you can make tidy loops while the other guy can't..? A loop is quite possibly the worst manouver ever in combat, as it slows you down and make a perfect target of you.

Please note that under aerobatics, I (and the RAF as well) mean loops, finely executed rolls and other similiar stuff used for displays. A rather different thing than briskly executed, often uncoordinated combat manouvers which are 'untidy' exactly for the reason so that they are difficult to follow.

[Robo.]

Originally Posted by Kurfürst

Please note that under aerobatics, I (and the RAF as well) mean loops, finely executed rolls and other similiar stuff used for displays. A rather different thing than briskly executed, often uncoordinated combat manouvers which are 'untidy' exactly for the reason so that they are difficult to follow.

Loops, finely executed rolls and other similiar stuff used for displays is obviously useless in the actual combat. We (virtual pilots) know that and RAF learned the hard way back in the day. Still, combat manoeuvres have to be tidy if you want to succeed and / or survive in the sim. We're getting into fighter combat tactics here and that is not necessary I suppose - all I say is that the aerobatic abilities of the Spitfire can save your life although aerobatics as such is useless.

[Osprey]

Originally Posted by Robo.

I believe Osprey's point was that the aerobatic ability of my aircraft becomes extremely important when I encounter enemy whose speed, climb and rollrate is superior to mine.

Not quite, but those attributes. Let us discount speed though because the 109 is not faster than the Spitfire, they exchange that through altitude.
The point is that many people on here quote off their experience and lecture about tactics to others as if that person knows nothing at all and that they have never been shot down themselves. And this is it, THEY HAVE been shot down, therefore they would have been in the wrong position at that time regardless of their experience. This is the randomness of war, you can't always pick that advantage. When in the position of equality or disadvantage the Spitfire is ahead of the 109 - this is a great strength. For either type they are both deadly when they have surprise.

"Ceteris Paribus"