Crusaders AD 2012

[CWMV]

Shoot, I rolled out on patrol in Baghdad with this patch on my armor:


The armed forces is no place for this PC BS.
We are (formerly in my case) professional warriors, and as an infantryman I can trace my lineage as such back to these very knights.
tradition is a watchword in any armed forces, second only to mission accomplishment.
I say Kudos to the jar heads for this. I can only speak for the US, but we need to make up our minds about what we want from our armed forces. Do we want them to be well oiled, highly motivated, dedicated hard-core killing machines focused on accomplishing the mission at hand-or rubber bullet toting "peace keeper" cop wann-be's.

[baronWastelan]

Wow, I had no idea the term "jar heads' was still in use

Always a treat to hear from the Infantry. Hopefully this will be a topic where warriors of all nations and creeds can post freely.

[CWMV]

Originally Posted by baronWastelan

Wow, I had no idea the term "jar heads' was still in use

Always a treat to hear from the Infantry. Hopefully this will be a topic where warriors of all nations and creeds can post freely.

Oh ya! Actually its the nicest way I can think to refer to marines...

+1 on the rest of that too.

[Igo kyu]

The crusades were a Christian jihad, no more, no less.

[Artist]

CWMV, AndyJWest,

you're not discussing the same matter.

AndyJWest: CWMV is right when it comes down to fighting.
CWMV: Andy is correct when your getting into conflict between your oath and a government turned not only immoral but evil (i.e. in my country between 1933 and 1945 - heartfelt thanks to your ancestors for rescuing us from it, btw.): What do you do when you're ordered to commit atrocities (like German soldiers were then)?

Artist

[CWMV]

Ah I see.
Well the thing of it is that this sort of thing happens so infrequently that I Didn't consider it.
US soldiers have the right to refuse to follow an unlawful order.
But ultimately its not up to you to decide. If you refuse such an order you'll be detained and court marshaled. Then your superiors will decide if the order was unlawful or not.
But again, this sort of thing happens so infrequently that its not really worth consideration. The vast, overwhelming majority of soldiers will never receive an unlawful order.
And it doesnt bear much on the subject of the thread. Not much to do with unit symbology/tradition and esprit de corps.

Originally Posted by Igo kyu

The crusades were a Christian jihad, no more, no less.

I disagree.

[AndyJWest]

"I, ----- do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."

Yup. The words may well be 'close to Holy' to you, CWMV. That people can evoke religion to justify acts they would otherwise not engage in is one reason I am an atheist. As for "You don't serve your country, in the military anyway, by questioning orders", how do you think the United States came into existance in the first place?

[Igo kyu]

Originally Posted by CWMV

I disagree.

From the point of view of the crusaders, it wasn't a war for God against evil?

We can argue about whether people who think like that are deluded, but I do believe that's what was and is thought by crusaders and jihadists.

[AndyJWest]

"Do we want them to be well oiled, highly motivated, dedicated hard-core killing machines..." Nope. Anyone who dumps their morality when putting on the uniform of a soldier is unfit to serve. (And before you ask, no I haven't - but I've seen the results on those who do, and what it does to them, never mind what it does to the enemy: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1758301.stm)

As for claiming to trace your lineage back to Crusaders, yeah, right...

[WTE_Galway]

Actually the The Poor Fellow-Soldiers of Christ and of the Temple of Solomon, more commonly known as the Templars, are an interesting choice as ...

1) they were declared heretical in France and officially disbanded by the church in 1312. They were not exactly exalted heroes of Christendom towards the end.

2) unlike the Hospitallers, who left a humanitarian legacy in the form of St John's ambulance, the Templars were the worlds first corporate bankers, and the first to use control of money to manipulate politics ... which led to their eventual downfall.


To be honest the people who can truly trace their lineage back to the Knights Templar are not the American Marine Corp, it is Goldman Sachs.