109 elevator trim

[SlipBall]

Originally Posted by Varrattu

I'm not sure wether this is the report Robo referred to. Please have a look at page 7, last paragraph (4.23):


ME109 handling & manoeuvrability test



I bet it were actually 6 turns in newer machines. 1/2 turn corresponds to 1 degree ...

Interesting, and yes we do not have 5+ revolution in game...and so I would think that the unknown is time, how long did it take the RL pilot to adjust per 1 degree, and is that modeled correctly in game...it may well already be, I do not have the knowledge/certainly not the experience, to speculate any further.

[robtek]

One can quite reliable assume that the wheel turned quite easily because of the gearing reduction and the large wheel.
So it is quite easy to grip a imaginary wheel beside your seat and give it 4 quarter turns.
You'll see that that takes about 1 second.
As the wheel was readily accessible and had no big resistance (assumed) that would comply with the 5 to 6 seconds measured by Flanker35.

[Varrattu]

Originally Posted by SlipBall

... how long did it take the RL pilot to adjust per 1 degree ...

Max. ~2 seconds, ~1/4 turn per second, as in in the video.

[Osprey]

I'm sorry Robtek, but you are saying that you can turn a 12" disc one whole rotation in 4 movements in 1 second. Yes, ONE second. Sorry, but no, don't be ridiculous.

It is the number of rotations is modeled to move through the entire trim range and a realistic speed of adjustment (as suggested in the flaps adjustment) that we are seek. Any superspeed suggestion is biased in order to gain advantage. Let's not skew the facts please, this goes for all types.

[BGs_Ricky]

And what about the g-forces the pilot and structure would suffer when going to full up nose trim very quickly in a high speed dive?

I spoke with a Typhoon pilot (Sqn. Leader D.L Stevenson) who told me that he often had to trim nose up quick to recover from high speed dives when attacking with rockets, and that made him nearly black out every time.

There's also a passage in Clostermann's The Big Show when he had to apply a lot of nose-up trim while diving like crazy from high alt chasing a 109, he lost consciousness immediately and when he came back to his senses he had a nosebleed and his radio was useless from the high g's. After landing he saw taht his plane was quite warped...

So I guess that in game whe can quicky apply full trim at high speed we shoild also feel quite some effect on the pilot and airframe.

Surely pilots would adjust trim even in a fight, but generally you apply trim in small amounts, you rarely put full trim at once except if your live is really depending on it, when pulling out of a dive for example...

[5./JG27.Farber]

Originally Posted by Robo.

I am not confusing anything, the relevance is in the position and access to the wheel control. 5 full turns (or 4 three-quarter turns) were required to adjust the full 12 degree range.

But if the aircraft in level flight is trimmed, lets say 0, then why would the pilot be going for the full 12 degrees? So its not 4 3/4 turns is it? It 1 or 2 3/4 turns! The wheels as I have read where quite accesable.

I feel this has been a valuble learning experience for me and thanks for letting me know about this. I will give it a try next time im flying. Ill let you know how I get on but I dont think it will change allot for me.

[Robo.]

Originally Posted by 5./JG27.Farber

But if the aircraft in level flight is trimmed, lets say 0, then why would the pilot be going for the full 12 degrees? So its not 4 3/4 turns is it? It 1 or 2 3/4 turns!

This is what I wrote before (post 36)

''I can only assume that it was full 2 revolutions from neutral position to full up. Now watch the animation (less than one rev) and the immediate effect we have got in game. Neutral position (0), +3 was nose down, -8 was full up - assuming the 0 is neutral for cruise flight, it would be even more than 2 full revs to get from neutral to full up, it would be more like 3 and half full revolutions. I would need to verify this and do some more research but I am sure someone will have that knowledge.''

Originally Posted by 5./JG27.Farber

I feel this has been a valuble learning experience for me and thanks for letting me know about this. I will give it a try next time im flying. Ill let you know how I get on but I dont think it will change allot for me.

Yeah I find this also very interesting.

[Osprey]

Very interesting responses, I am pleased that most people understand that I am making the point to make our game more sim and less game. It's not about advantage but reality.

Just to be clear, my argument is that the trim control operational difficultly and speed of operation should be replicated for all aircraft. Thus if indeed it took a pilot several seconds to adjust his trim 3 or 4 degrees by turning a 12inch wheel then there's no reason why, for example, a flick of a thumb on the joystick should send it 6 degrees in 2 seconds. Any action on any aircraft should have a bug raised if such exploit is found.

~S~


As a side note I had to report Grathos for his quite disgusting reply, thoroughly rude and obtuse, I think it says more about him than me. @Grathos, don't ever '~S~' me again.

[Crumpp]

Aerodynamic forces change the feel and operation of controls. They are designed to work under those forces.

That is also why a very small amount of trim makes for a large adjustment in trim forces in most aircraft. It won't take several seconds to adjust the trim forces in flight.

[Robo.]

Originally Posted by Crumpp

Aerodynamic forces change the feel and operation of controls. They are designed to work under those forces.

Yes of course.

Originally Posted by Crumpp

That is also why a very small amount of trim makes for a large adjustment in trim forces in most aircraft. It won't take several seconds to adjust the trim forces in flight.

Have you got any specific information regarding the 109 trim wheel operation?