109 elevator trim

[Flanker35M]

S!

The thing in CoD is that if we trim the aircraft then the appropriate trim know/lever/wheel moves constantly until it reaches the desired position. This in all planes. So if you need 5 revolutions to fully deflect the trim in Bf109, for example, it will move nonstop that 5 seconds as the "grabs" are not simulated. Same goes to Bf109 flaps. It takes them pretty much the same time to deploy as stated in many reports EVEN the trim wheel moves nonstop in the game.

So I think Luthier and his team have taken in account the "grabs" on trimming to achieve historical results even the visual indication tells the movement is continuous.

I tested offline on Bf109E-4. The flaps take ~25sec to deploy/retract. Trimming the full deflection ~5-6sec. The movement of the trim axis does NOT affect trim speed in ANY way, always the same. So mapping to an axis does NOT give you an advantage. As reference on Spitfire Mk.Ia the elevator trim takes about the same 5-6sec for full deflection so not much difference there.

[SlipBall]

Originally Posted by Varrattu

I'm not sure wether this is the report Robo referred to. Please have a look at page 7, last paragraph (4.23):


ME109 handling & manoeuvrability test



I bet it were actually 6 turns in newer machines. 1/2 turn corresponds to 1 degree ...

Interesting, and yes we do not have 5+ revolution in game...and so I would think that the unknown is time, how long did it take the RL pilot to adjust per 1 degree, and is that modeled correctly in game...it may well already be, I do not have the knowledge/certainly not the experience, to speculate any further.

[robtek]

One can quite reliable assume that the wheel turned quite easily because of the gearing reduction and the large wheel.
So it is quite easy to grip a imaginary wheel beside your seat and give it 4 quarter turns.
You'll see that that takes about 1 second.
As the wheel was readily accessible and had no big resistance (assumed) that would comply with the 5 to 6 seconds measured by Flanker35.

[Varrattu]

Originally Posted by SlipBall

... how long did it take the RL pilot to adjust per 1 degree ...

Max. ~2 seconds, ~1/4 turn per second, as in in the video.

[Osprey]

I'm sorry Robtek, but you are saying that you can turn a 12" disc one whole rotation in 4 movements in 1 second. Yes, ONE second. Sorry, but no, don't be ridiculous.

It is the number of rotations is modeled to move through the entire trim range and a realistic speed of adjustment (as suggested in the flaps adjustment) that we are seek. Any superspeed suggestion is biased in order to gain advantage. Let's not skew the facts please, this goes for all types.

[5./JG27.Farber]

Originally Posted by Robo.

I am not confusing anything, the relevance is in the position and access to the wheel control. 5 full turns (or 4 three-quarter turns) were required to adjust the full 12 degree range.

But if the aircraft in level flight is trimmed, lets say 0, then why would the pilot be going for the full 12 degrees? So its not 4 3/4 turns is it? It 1 or 2 3/4 turns! The wheels as I have read where quite accesable.

I feel this has been a valuble learning experience for me and thanks for letting me know about this. I will give it a try next time im flying. Ill let you know how I get on but I dont think it will change allot for me.

[Robo.]

Originally Posted by 5./JG27.Farber

But if the aircraft in level flight is trimmed, lets say 0, then why would the pilot be going for the full 12 degrees? So its not 4 3/4 turns is it? It 1 or 2 3/4 turns!

This is what I wrote before (post 36)

''I can only assume that it was full 2 revolutions from neutral position to full up. Now watch the animation (less than one rev) and the immediate effect we have got in game. Neutral position (0), +3 was nose down, -8 was full up - assuming the 0 is neutral for cruise flight, it would be even more than 2 full revs to get from neutral to full up, it would be more like 3 and half full revolutions. I would need to verify this and do some more research but I am sure someone will have that knowledge.''

Originally Posted by 5./JG27.Farber

I feel this has been a valuble learning experience for me and thanks for letting me know about this. I will give it a try next time im flying. Ill let you know how I get on but I dont think it will change allot for me.

Yeah I find this also very interesting.

[Osprey]

Very interesting responses, I am pleased that most people understand that I am making the point to make our game more sim and less game. It's not about advantage but reality.

Just to be clear, my argument is that the trim control operational difficultly and speed of operation should be replicated for all aircraft. Thus if indeed it took a pilot several seconds to adjust his trim 3 or 4 degrees by turning a 12inch wheel then there's no reason why, for example, a flick of a thumb on the joystick should send it 6 degrees in 2 seconds. Any action on any aircraft should have a bug raised if such exploit is found.

~S~


As a side note I had to report Grathos for his quite disgusting reply, thoroughly rude and obtuse, I think it says more about him than me. @Grathos, don't ever '~S~' me again.

[Crumpp]

Aerodynamic forces change the feel and operation of controls. They are designed to work under those forces.

That is also why a very small amount of trim makes for a large adjustment in trim forces in most aircraft. It won't take several seconds to adjust the trim forces in flight.

[Robo.]

Originally Posted by Crumpp

Aerodynamic forces change the feel and operation of controls. They are designed to work under those forces.

Yes of course.

Originally Posted by Crumpp

That is also why a very small amount of trim makes for a large adjustment in trim forces in most aircraft. It won't take several seconds to adjust the trim forces in flight.

Have you got any specific information regarding the 109 trim wheel operation?