how are these 109s turns 180 with out penalties?

[ACE-OF-ACES]

The only thing we can say with any certainty is that no one has yet posting anything that would/could be remotely considered as proof either for or against the realism of the Bf109 FM

Due to the limitations of the human sense observations from the plane itself, or worse yet, the opposing plane consist of too many unknowns to say with any certainty..

Unless the values are way off..

For example a Bf109 climbing straight up for 20kft like an F15 is an error the human senses could detect.. But the human senses are not good enough to even begin to quantify the error (say how big the error is)

That is the reason plane makers more so than not go to all the trouble of instrumenting a plane to 'measure' the variables during the test flight.. As opposed to relying solely on the test pilots real time (radio) or memory of the flight

With that said

When testing how realistic an FM is you need to do the following three things as a 'minimum'

1) Know what the real world values should be for a given test flight.
2) Be able to reproduce the test flight method and reproduce or account for the configuration used during the test flight.
3) Log the same or equivalent in-game data while reproducing the test flight in-game.

Than and only than can you say with any certainty how realistic the FM is..

And know that the acceptable rule-of-thumb error between the real world data and in-game data is about +/-5%

Note.. you will be hard pressed to find any real world data on the energy state or power of a Bf109 performing a 180°! Thus failing one of the three minimum requirements for a test. At which point you would have to 'calculate' in advance what the values 'should be' but that in and of itself can be a real can of worms. Thus it is best to limit your FM testing to the types of testing they did in WWII, in that you will stand a much better chance of finding some real world data to compare to.

Anything less than that is just opinion at best

PS you can log data in CoD using C#

[bw_wolverine]

Originally Posted by CaptainDoggles

When did it become unusual to seek an altitude advantage before engaging an opponent? FW190 pilots have been doing this for almost a decade now.

When did diving from above suddenly go from being "flying smart" to "unacceptable"?



Maybe full-real isn't for you, then?

When did I ever use the word "unacceptable"?

Stop being so aggressively antagonistic about this discussion.

If you're not a high flying 109 diving onto your targets, I will be the first to say you're doing it wrong.

I'm happy to fly at 15k+. The ACTION I'm talking about is MISSION CRITICAL action. How many bombers attacking Ramsgate Beaufighters have you seen coming in at 10k+? Maybe I need to get my eyes checked, but I have seen ZERO. The only bombers I ever see going for targets are chopping the water with their props.

If I'm a Spit or a Hurricane that low to the deck, I am a sitting duck for you or any 109 pilot. Even a bad one.

If you want to treat ATAG's server as a dogfight server, go ahead.

I'm thankful for ATAG. It's helped create an online presence for the game if not a cohesive community. But the way things usually play out in the missions these days, it's not much fun most of the time. There are other servers running other missions that I like more, but no one plays there. As everyone has said, AI fighters are BAD to dogfight with. Not much fun there either.

So I occasionally vent like in the above posts and I get back to it. Maybe one time someone will think "Hmm, maybe if we try this it'll make it better for everyone." I'm not out to ruin anyone's fun. I'm out to improve everyone's fun. And, yes, that includes people who like to fly Spitfires and Hurricanes. Sue me.

[Ernst]

You can counter the enemies low but make sure that you have friends flying higher. The difficult is to find a team that want to take different roles and fly that way:

examples:

you can do a low CAP since you have other guys flying high. I doubt that high enemies ll dive knowing that there are enemies higher too.

If they dive to attack they ll become nice targets too. You only have to join some guys with enough tactical discipline and put the things in practice. Invite some friends and make a plan: while i and 2 go to low CAP, another 4 go to a high CAP over the area etc. The enemy ll think to times before dive and give their altitude advantage.

The problem is to find some to fly this way.

[bw_wolverine]

Originally Posted by Ernst

You can counter the enemies low but make sure that you have friends flying higher. The difficult is to find a team that want to take different roles and fly that way:

examples:

you can do a low CAP since you have other guys flying high. I doubt that high enemies ll dive knowing that there are enemies higher too.

If they dive to attack they ll become nice targets too. You only have to join some guys with enough tactical discipline and put the things in practice. Invite some friends and make a plan: while i and 2 go to low CAP, another 4 go to a high CAP over the area etc. The enemy ll think to times before dive and give their altitude advantage.

The problem is to find some to fly this way.

This is the sort of thing I want too And yes, I'm trying desperately to get this going. Why do you think I started 401?

So yes, this kind of organization is what we need. I will keep trying.

Like I said many times. These are mostly just vent posts. Back to business as normal.

[Insuber]

Originally Posted by Ernst

You can counter the enemies low but make sure that you have friends flying higher. The difficult is to find a team that want to take different roles and fly that way:

examples:

you can do a low CAP since you have other guys flying high. I doubt that high enemies ll dive knowing that there are enemies higher too.

If they dive to attack they ll become nice targets too. You only have to join some guys with enough tactical discipline and put the things in practice. Invite some friends and make a plan: while i and 2 go to low CAP, another 4 go to a high CAP over the area etc. The enemy ll think to times before dive and give their altitude advantage.

The problem is to find some to fly this way.

+1. Superior height + a wingman cure 99% of the current plane performance issues - apart from the G.50, which is seriously flawed in speed, climbrate and ceiling).

Cheers!

[CaptainDoggles]

Originally Posted by bw_wolverine

If you're not a high flying 109 diving onto your targets, I will be the first to say you're doing it wrong.

If you're not a high flying Spit or Hurricane diving onto your targets, I'll be the first to say you're doing it wrong.

I'm happy to fly at 15k+. The ACTION I'm talking about is MISSION CRITICAL action. How many bombers attacking Ramsgate Beaufighters have you seen coming in at 10k+? Maybe I need to get my eyes checked, but I have seen ZERO. The only bombers I ever see going for targets are chopping the water with their props.

Blame the mission designers then, not the aircraft. It's not the Hurricane's fault that the AI bombers come in at 3500 meters.

If I'm a Spit or a Hurricane that low to the deck, I am a sitting duck for you or any 109 pilot. Even a bad one.

If you're in any fighter, low on the deck, you're a sitting duck for anyone. Even a bad pilot.

So I occasionally vent like in the above posts and I get back to it. Maybe one time someone will think "Hmm, maybe if we try this it'll make it better for everyone." I'm not out to ruin anyone's fun. I'm out to improve everyone's fun. And, yes, that includes people who like to fly Spitfires and Hurricanes. Sue me.

You're implying I'm somehow against people having fun? I'm definitely not. What puzzles me is when people fly on full-real servers and then imply that they don't like to fly high and dive on their opponents. That's what you're SUPPOSED to do.

Any time you engage at Co-Energy, you're doing it wrong.

[Widow17]

Originally Posted by CaptainDoggles

If you're not a high flying Spit or Hurricane diving onto your targets, I'll be the first to say you're doing it wrong.

Blame the mission designers then, not the aircraft. It's not the Hurricane's fault that the AI bombers come in at 3500 meters.

If you're in any fighter, low on the deck, you're a sitting duck for anyone. Even a bad pilot.


You're implying I'm somehow against people having fun? I'm definitely not. What puzzles me is when people fly on full-real servers and then imply that they don't like to fly high and dive on their opponents. That's what you're SUPPOSED to do.

Any time you engage at Co-Energy, you're doing it wrong.

Well, but finally its a game and it can be great fun to try and find tactics to fight a enemy at co-e or even at e-disadvantage. If i only had one life that would be different. But just diving on a opponent with e advantage is kinda boring to me.

[bw_wolverine]

Originally Posted by CaptainDoggles

If you're not a high flying Spit or Hurricane diving onto your targets, I'll be the first to say you're doing it wrong.

Blame the mission designers then, not the aircraft. It's not the Hurricane's fault that the AI bombers come in at 3500 meters.

If you're in any fighter, low on the deck, you're a sitting duck for anyone. Even a bad pilot.


You're implying I'm somehow against people having fun? I'm definitely not. What puzzles me is when people fly on full-real servers and then imply that they don't like to fly high and dive on their opponents. That's what you're SUPPOSED to do.

Any time you engage at Co-Energy, you're doing it wrong.

Sigh.

YES, EVERYONE should be attempting get above their targets and dive down on them.

The way the mission is designed is EXACTLY where I'm trying to place all of this '109s are better than Spits and Hurricanes' stuff. The 109 has many TECHNICAL advantages that can be negated by TACTICAL advantages. Those TACTICAL advantages get taken away by the SITUATIONAL REQUIREMENTS of the mission struture.

OF COURSE anyone who is low on the deck is a bad situation. 109 or Spit or Hurricane. But if you're trying to tell me that at equal altitude there's no advantage in being in a 109 (pilot skill considered equal), then you're bonkers. See Recoilfx's posts.

You're SUPPOSED to destroy targets in France/England and protect your targets in France/England. No where in there do I see 'get lots of kills!'. If getting lots of kills was the objective of the map, I bet we would see people jockeying to get higher and higher above each other. You can bet I wouldn't be going out below 18k ft.

But I CAN'T!!!! If I want to defend a target, 18k ft is USELESSSS!!!$!@#$O(#*&%)(%&)(W$*%&

So, the ONLY thing I can try to do is try to get together a skilled bunch of RAF pilots to fly low bomber cover and high fighter cover cap and work together. This is very hard to do with untrained people. I'm working on it, but it's hard.

Let's repeat:

1. I'm not advocating anyone in a 109 change how they play. Keep doing what you're doing.
2. I'm not even advocating that the flight models need to be changed. I certainly would LIKE to have a Spitfire that is more Fire than Spit, but it's not going to do anything to solve the "problems" being presented by 109s diving on their targets. It's not a problem. It's a tactical mistake made by the Spitfire pilot.
3. I AM saying, and have been in nearly every post I've made, that this is mostly VENTING FRUSTRATION at a mission structure that is friendly to the single or pair 109 pilot and very unfriendly to groups of RAF pilots. We need to seriously up our game to deal with something that a relatively adequet pilot on BLUE side can execute no problem (stay high, dive on target - WHAT YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO DO). The appropriate counter measure to this (the low/high cover) is not something that your adequet red pilot can do. It takes some skill.

My suggestion is this as an example. Get 4 pilots to fly together on comms. For some people, that's hard enough. Fortunately, it's getting easier as people get to know each other. Then get two of them to fly at 5,000 ft. Get the other two to fly at 15,000 ft. See if the 15k boys can keep eyes on the 5k boys over the course of 30 minutes. Constantly keep eyes on. That's not easy for experienced pilots I think, let alone fresh ones.

EDIT: Getting frustrated again, but only because you seem to be misreading what I'm saying in previous posts. Let's just call it miscommunication and get back to flying. This'll be my last post on the subject of all this.