Cliffs of Dover, a Year Later

[adonys]

Originally Posted by David Hayward

This is called a Straw Man fallacy.

I never said that it was the MOST complicated, nor did I say that it has the best graphics engine. I said that "complicated software is never optimized at release." The logic in that statement is solid. I've been employed as a programmer since 1986.

You probably should not use logical fallacies when you are criticizing someone else's logic.

Software is, most of the time, optimized before release. Here are some examples of very complicated software which run fine at release:

- TESV: Skyrim
- Mafia II

Are those enough? or you want more?

Also, both games have HUGE worlds. With hundreds or even thousands of actors (AIs) and objects. Both of above games have also complex game subsystems.

[GraveyardJimmy]

Originally Posted by adonys

Software is, most of the time, optimized before release. Here are some examples of very complicated software which run fine at release:

- TESV: Skyrim
- Mafia II

Are those enough? or you want more?

Also, both games have HUGE worlds. With hundreds or even thousands of actors (AIs) and objects. Both of above games have also complex game subsystems.

Both games published by much larger and more financed companies. They also aren't as complex as calculating flight physics and damage modelling, engine management etc.

[David Hayward]

Originally Posted by adonys

Software is, most of the time, optimized before release. Here are some examples of very complicated software which run fine at release:

- TESV: Skyrim
- Mafia II

Apparently we are using different definitions of "optimized". "Running fine" is NOT the same as "optimized".

To me it means "Make the best or most effective use of a resource". That means the code should be as efficient as is possible. I have no idea why you think that either of those games were as efficient as possible at release, but I would bet that you're wrong.

We find ways to make code more efficient all the time.

[6S.Tamat]

Originally Posted by David Hayward

Apparently we are using different definitions of "optimized". "Running fine" is NOT the same as "optimized".

To me it means "Make the best or most effective use of a resource". That means the code should be as efficient as is possible. I have no idea why you think that either of those games were as efficient as possible at release, but I would bet that you're wrong.

We find ways to make code more efficient all the time.

There is an huge difference between a software that needs to be optimized and a sowtware that needs a huge remake of a core system like the graphic engine... but perhaps I was thinking that was obvious but is not.

[David Hayward]

Originally Posted by 6S.Tamat

There is an huge difference between a software that needs to be optimized and a sowtware that needs a huge remake of a core system like the graphic engine... but perhaps I was thinking that was obvious but is not.

Sometimes you can optimize code by making small changes. Sometimes it requires big changes. It's not always possible to know that you made bad choices early in the design process.

[6S.Manu]

Originally Posted by David Hayward

Sometimes you can optimize code by making small changes. Sometimes it requires big changes. It's not always possible to know that you made bad choices early in the design process.

Of course but you recognize those BIG problems during the testing of the Alpha version... not at release!

[David Hayward]

Originally Posted by 6S.Manu

Of course but you recognize those BIG problems during the testing of the Alpha version... not at release!

Not if you run out of time and money and have no choice but to release. Then you release anyways and hope that you can fix it after release.

Does that situation sound familiar?

[6S.Manu]

Originally Posted by David Hayward

Not if you run out of time and money and have no choice but to release. Then you release anyways and hope that you can fix it after release.

Does that situation sound familiar?

I can't disagree with you here but you said:

Originally Posted by David Hayward

Complicated applications are never optimized at initial release. How long have you been programming?

So is every complicated application released because of these issues?

I don't think so.

[d.burnette]

Originally Posted by 6S.Manu

Of course but you recognize those BIG problems during the testing of the Alpha version... not at release!

I tell you guys I always think of one thing in anything that might "bug" me, and I truly always try at least to live by it.

Never sweat the "small stuff", don't sweat the " stuff you cannot control", never look back because " you can't change a dang thing that has already occured".
The only thing I myself can do, from my perspective, is control " how I react" to these things as they occur - and I try to keep the above in mind when I do.

It is amazing when things happen to us, that are really big - like health issues, major surgeries, or worse,or to our loved ones - how are perceptions on the thing we once thought of how very important they were, all of a sudden - they really were not and meant very little.

Just sharing my newbie wisdom of the day...


Have fun!

[Peaveywolf]

Originally Posted by adonys

Software is, most of the time, optimized before release. Here are some examples of very complicated software which run fine at release:

- TESV: Skyrim
- Mafia II

Are those enough? or you want more?

Also, both games have HUGE worlds. With hundreds or even thousands of actors (AIs) and objects. Both of above games have also complex game subsystems.

Those are both games with very little depth in them. They are not complex like a flight sim. At least try and be in the same ballpark