Bomber boys - bbc one

[RCAF_FB_Orville]

Originally Posted by kendo65

A reply to (and maybe criticism of !) my own post.

I may have a naive impression of the German populace in WW2 as being unaware of the scale of the slaughter being perpetrated on the Jews? (I realise that there was obvious awareness of the discrimination and removal of Jews from daily life (ghettoisation, etc). I think there may be differing opinions amongst historians on how actively involved the general populace was. Indifference, ignorance or fear-driven inaction versus general complicity?

Question to those in the know - which of the above is closer to the truth?

(the above was written before, but posted after CSThor's response )
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Regarding Heydrich and specific individuals - there will always be particular people with combinations of sociopathic or psychopathic personality traits, and extreme political views that will allow them to balance and reconcile brutality towards chosen targets with civic duty and normal family activities. My argument above largely stands or falls on the reasons why the Nazis were able to get away with it. Ie how many people like Heydrich, Hitler does it take to pull a whole society along behind them? Obviously not everyone is complicit. How many then need to keep quiet and just follow orders? What happens to those who oppose but feel powerless to intervene?

I suspect some of the above questions could be applied to some Allied airmen who may have had deep misgivings about what they were doing to German cities. I was struck in the Bomber TV programme by the crewman who cracked up during a mission. 'Lack of moral fibre'. One expressed reservations but justified his participation with 'They started it'. That's not meant as a criticism of the individuals, more a comment on the near-impossibilty of maintaining any kind of normal judgement of behaviour in such an extreme situation as a war.

How much personal responsibilty do ordinary individuals carry when they are basically 'caught' in situations of deep powerlessness with few or no ways out?

Regarding the question of the complicity or otherwise of the German population, its still the subject of historiographical inquiry. The consensus appears to be that the majority of civilians were aware of atrocities being committed, though not entirely aware of the Wansee conference and the official doctrine and policy of the 'Final Solution' and the precise details of the death camps. They were certainly aware of the forced removal of 'undesirables' to concentration camps and enforced/slave labour, and actively and extensively involved in its facilitation and prosecution.

An Oxford University Historian named Robert Gallatley conducted thorough and respected research into German media both prior to and during the war, drawing the conclusion that there was '"substantial consent and active participation of large numbers of ordinary Germans" in the prosecution of the Holocaust, though he saw no evidence for majority awareness of the precise details.

This has not gone unchallenged however, and the debate continues.

I am of the opinion that what happened in Germany could have most certainly happened anywhere, given the same conflagration of circumstance and variables. To suggest (as some idiots do) that the German people were somehow inherently 'evil' or existed in some kind of personal moral vacuum is patently ludicrous. This is of course clearly evidenced by those who chose bravely to resist (albeit a minority). What it did unfortunately illustrate is what Humanity is capable of, and particularly the insidious and all pervasive effect of a Fascist states propaganda machine upon a populace.

The psychological phenomena of 'herding' has been posited as a possible explanation, and experiments like the 'Stanford prison experiment' *and the 'Milgram experiment' clearly illustrate how otherwise 'normal' people can behave when told to do unspeakable things by what they perceive to be an 'authority' figure. The cult of personality was nurtured and used to great effect by the Nazis, and was a powerful force indeed.

[kendo65]

'how many people like Heydrich, Hitler does it take to pull a whole society along behind them? Obviously not everyone is complicit. How many then need to keep quiet and just follow orders? What happens to those who oppose but feel powerless to intervene?'

Originally Posted by RCAF_FB_Orville

...
What it did unfortunately illustrate is what Humanity is capable of, and particularly the insidious and all pervasive effect of a Fascist states propaganda machine upon a populace.

The psychological phenomena of 'herding' has been posited as a possible explanation, and experiments like the 'Stanford prison experiment' *and the 'Milgram experiment' clearly illustrate how otherwise 'normal' people can behave when told to do unspeakable things by what they perceive to be an 'authority' figure.
...

I had thought of those experiments and what they say about the pliability of the 'ordinary' person when I was writing the above. Establishing the 'right' conditions of deference to authority and unquestioning obedience was obviously a key facet of the Nazi regime.

Nonetheless there were those in the Milgram / Stanford experiments who refused to comply, just as there were those in Germany. For those individuals is it a deeper commitment to an inner moral sense that leads them to refuse to comply even in the face of threats and possible danger? And at any time in any country are the greater mass of the population always just 'following orders' from their perceived superiors? Just that in most cases the orders are comparatively mundane and benign.

(Personally I don't like Graham Norton. I used to like him for his role in Father Ted. I changed my mind when I realised that it wasn't great acting, but that he actually was as annoying as that in real life too!)

[ATAG_Snapper]

Originally Posted by kendo65

'how many people like Heydrich, Hitler does it take to pull a whole society along behind them? Obviously not everyone is complicit. How many then need to keep quiet and just follow orders? What happens to those who oppose but feel powerless to intervene?'



I had thought of those experiments and what they say about the pliability of the 'ordinary' person when I was writing the above. Establishing the 'right' conditions of deference to authority and unquestioning obedience was obviously a key facet of the Nazi regime.

Nonetheless there were those in the Milgram / Stanford experiments who refused to comply, just as there were those in Germany. For those individuals is it a deeper commitment to an inner moral sense that leads them to refuse to comply even in the face of threats and possible danger? And at any time in any country are the greater mass of the population always just 'following orders' from their perceived superiors? Just that in most cases the orders are comparatively mundane and benign.

(Personally I don't like Graham Norton. I used to like him for his role in Father Ted. I changed my mind when I realised that it wasn't great acting, but that he actually was as annoying as that in real life too!)

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.
Edmund Burke
Irish orator, philosopher, & politician (1729 - 1797)

[WTE_Galway]

Do remember a little history in these discussions.

The first concentration camp, Dachau, was setup in March 1933 and immediately started processing "dissidents" including academics, writers, unionists and members of the communist party.

By June 1934 the only force capable of opposing Hitler was Ernst Röhm's SA (an exceptionally unpleasant organization in its own right) that was quickly and ruthlessly eliminated in the Night of the Long Knives when all of its upper leadership were imprisoned and executed.

By the time of the invasion of Poland on September 1, 1939 the concentration camps had been operating for 6 years and anyone even slightly critical of Hitler was efficiently rounded up and bundled off.

It is simply not true that ordinary Germans failed to oppose Hitler. Between 1933 and 1945 approximately 3.5 million ordinary Aryan German citizens were sent to concentration camps simply for opposing the Nazis and 77,000 of those were executed.

Note those 77,000 executed people were NOT members of persecuted groups such as the gays, gypsies or Jews and they were not criminals. These were ordinary Germans who opposed Hitler.

[Kongo-Otto]

Originally Posted by WTE_Galway

Do remember a little history in these discussions.

The first concentration camp, Dachau, was setup in March 1933 and immediately started processing "dissidents" including academics, writers, unionists and members of the communist party.

Well you are right and wrong in this one. First of all Dachau was the first official KZ,there have been "KZ's" before, it started right until Januar 30th 1933 when the SA begun arresting people right off the streets and put them in so called "Wilde KZ's" which means "wild KZ" without any control of higher authorities, this "Wild KZ" were on a regional scale, they were used to torture and kill opposing people and sometimes also used to "pay personal bills".
This "Wild KZ's" were completely closed as by January 1934 as the SS gained full control over the Police and Security sector. Some of those "wild KZ's" could only be closed by hevily armed Police under SS Command due to SA resistance. All in all there have been up to 48 "wild Kz's" until the close up of the last ones in January 1934.

Originally Posted by WTE_Galway

By June 1934 the only force capable of opposing Hitler was Ernst Röhm's SA (an exceptionally unpleasant organization in its own right) that was quickly and ruthlessly eliminated in the Night of the Long Knives when all of its upper leadership were imprisoned and executed.

If you really think that the SA would have opposed Hitler, you are totally wrong, that would never had happend.
I copied this out of wiki, it fit the topic very good:
"Adolf Hitler moved against the SA and its leader, Ernst Röhm, because he saw the independence of the SA and the penchant of its members for street violence as a direct threat to his newly gained political power. He also wanted to conciliate leaders of the Reichswehr, the official German military who feared and despised the SA—in particular Röhm's ambition to absorb the Reichswehr into the SA under his own leadership. Finally, Hitler used the purge to attack or eliminate critics of his new regime, especially those loyal to Vice-Chancellor Franz von Papen, as well as to settle scores with old enemies."

The whole wiki article is very good about the topic "Night of the long Knives"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_of_the_Long_Knives