Bomber boys - bbc one

[bongodriver]

well I have a different understanding of the war in Northern Africa: the turning point was at the very beginning, when Vichy France surrendered, leaving a void and space for the Allied invasion to storm in. Other factors like limited or no supplies from Europe, the breaking of the Ultra code and inferior numbers in terms of troops and air support meant that it would only have been a matter of time, especially after the Germans started concentrating their efforts in Barbarossa.

Bring whatever factors into it you like...the outcome of the conflict was due to how it was managed by both sides.

lets make a hypothetical boxing match between matched opponents, one guy looses ballance....at that instant he is disadvantaged, the other guy isn't guaranteed a victory, he might also slip attempting the deciding blow.....you can see what I'm trying to say can't you.

it's not a case of saying you are completely wrong, it's just a case of saying you are wrong for saying everyone else is.

[fruitbat]

Originally Posted by bongodriver

it's not a case of saying you are completely wrong, it's just a case of saying you are wrong for saying everyone else is.

Lol.

[Sternjaeger II]

Originally Posted by bongodriver

Bring whatever factors into it you like...the outcome of the conflict was due to how it was managed by both sides.

lets make a hypothetical boxing match between matched opponents, one guy looses ballance....at that instant he is disadvantaged, the other guy isn't guaranteed a victory, he might also slip attempting the deciding blow.....you can see what I'm trying to say can't you.

well, I do, but it's not entirely pertinent to the Northern Africa Campaign scenario.

Let me give you a better example and see what you think about it: Russian generals like Zhukov didn't win their battles because they were fine tacticians, they simply poured millions of soldiers and hundreds of thousands of vehicles onto the battlefield, crushing everything on their way. 20 million deads for the Great Patriotic War as they call it is a mind boggling number, but that's the price they were ready to pay for victory. Does this make them good generals?

Patton's and Monty's advance into mainland Europe was highly dependent on fuel availability, so much that they often strongly argued about who should get it first and even air bridges struggled to keep up with it.

Then more than ever, mobility of logistics was the key to victory. Germany was quite good at it, but as resources diminished, so did the fighting capability, so that's the scenario that developed in Africa, exacerbated by the strong weather factors.

it's not a case of saying you are completely wrong, it's just a case of saying you are wrong for saying everyone else is.

LOL

I'm sorry if it comes out as a "I'm right, you're all wrong", but it surprises me how things that I give for granted in history (especially considering that I've done most of my history studying at a British university, and had a lot of work done on area bombing for a mega-presentation) are often either ignored or not considered valid, and put against non factual arguments, but usually national pride (and there's nothing wrong in national pride, it just doesn't have to get in the way of an objective observation of history).

[bongodriver]

Try not to go down the Nationalist route please.....I assure you it has nothing to do with it.

it just so happens I am only 1/4 english at best, my origins are oddly enough mostly from places with a historical tendency to be at odds with the British......try Boer and throw in a bit of German French and Irish and a large dolop of Russian.

Oh and I wasn't born in the UK either and I lived in Italy before coming here.

[Sternjaeger II]

Originally Posted by bongodriver

Try not to go down the Nationalist route please.....I assure you it has nothing to do with it.

it just so happens I am only 1/4 english at best, my origins are oddly enough mostly from places with a historical tendency to be at odds with the British......try Boer and throw in a bit of German French and Irish and a large dolop of Russian.

Oh and I wasn't born in the UK either and I lived in Italy before coming here.

I wasn't referring to you regarding the nationalist route, it's more of a generic feedback I get sometimes, and this applies to every country.

Whereabouts in Italy?

[bongodriver]

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

I wasn't referring to you regarding the nationalist route, it's more of a generic feedback I get sometimes, and this applies to every country.

Whereabouts in Italy?

I lived in Bologna, initially in the city itself and then we moved into the hills in a place called Rastignano, I wen't to a catholic school in pianoro, I spoke Italian fluently (people thought i was a local kid) and have subsequently forgotten it completely, easy come easy go when youre a kid.

[Sternjaeger II]

Originally Posted by bongodriver

I lived in Bologna, initially in the city itself and then we moved into the hills in a place called Rastignano, I wen't to a catholic school in pianoro, I spoke Italian fluently (people thought i was a local kid) and have subsequently forgotten it completely, easy come easy go when youre a kid.

ouch, catholic school with nuns?!

I know Rastignano! We flew to an ultralight airfield nearby with the Tiggies once and had a great meal there, which was spoilt by the flight back: bouncy August afternoon flight back, I really struggled to keep all that yummy food in as soon as I gave control to my co-pilot

[bongodriver]

ouch, catholic school with nuns?!

LOL....not quite that catholic, but Catholic enough for me to be excluded as a Satanic non-believer, the school dress was a black shirt with a white detachable collar, for some reason I wasn't allowed to wear the collar, I look at my old school photo and the look on my face is precious, a real sense of 'I wan't to kill you all damn you!', I was popular with the girlies though...hehe!

I know Rastignano! We flew to an ultralight airfield nearby with the Tiggies once and had a great meal there, which was spoilt by the flight back: bouncy August afternoon flight back, I really struggled to keep all that yummy food in as soon as I gave control to my co-pilot

Ah.....I didn't quite realise you are a fellow Tiggie pilot, how many hours? I haven't flown a Tiggie for about 10 years now (270 hours), I fly a Stearman for my vintage fix now.