The MOD mentality....

[HundertneunGustav]

" That is odd behavior for someone who considers it a waste of time huh? "

I think that Bearcat has the ability to sort of "stand on the moon" and observe from a distanced, far off neutral point the pros and the cons of something. Mods, no mods...

The man might see both sides of the medal, could that be the case? choosing which side he wants depending on what he wants to do with the Program at a given time?

And, is that not, sort of, wisdom?

"True, even the official version of IL2 is a judgement call, but it is an official judgement call by it's creators or those given the authority to do so, it is as good or better a judgement call than any others out there, and it is the most important to rally around."

Negative. IMO... negative.
Over at the SAS there are a bunch of Dinosaurs ( tongue in cheek) that hold on to a 4.09 version. (with or without mods)

If the official Version is "the most important one to rally around", that would at the moment be 4.11, right?

so, are the 4.09 fans or the standard, 4.07 players making a mistake, are they veering off the right/official track, just like the modders do? For what ever their reasons are?

are the people with 4.07/4.09 + mods even worse, even further, even farther from the official path, because they lack updates AND are screwing with the files?

"The sim is modded and has been that way for at least the past 5 years, and will be that way from here on out therefore to even debate mods is a waste of time."

Thats a good sentence...
It leads to my question, an honest and innocent one:
What exactly is the aim, the goal of this topic? Besides stating your position and opinion?

Besides learning to appreciate your point of View and your arguments, i can not see how it should teach me something else.

Topics like these were common, when the whole modding thing came "to the public". I have red them when... 2007? 2008?
And never has anything been achieved, besides stating different opinions, and when the discussion derailed (not IF, more like WHEN - they almost always did) a moderator had to intervene. And that always sucks.

[HundertneunGustav]

I went back to the first post, and picked a sentence, that i felt was the center of your opinion:

"Real IL2 aces and make do with what is given to them and fly the official patches without resorting to mods, hacks or cheats."

Let me introduce you to the following. open your mind, just gimme five minutes.

Look, there is "a Dude" here... let me fetch that link... here:
http://www.sas1946.com/main/index.ph...c,19365.0.html

he did a lot of work on the P-47 Loadouts.

concerning this very, very restricted topic of P-47 Loadouts, and the changes in Mission outcomes, by Bombing strafing and aerial Kills...

who is closer to the absolute truth? Ammo-wise. and ONLY about Ammo.
Is this re-shuffling of Information, the application of that info in the game, is that, as you say - a Cheat? Is it a Hack?

I am not out to pull you to the dark side. I do not want to convince you.

What i want, is to show you that not all of the modding work done is evil.

If you understand what has been changed to the P-47, if you by any chance happen to agree: these changes are not official, but, they are reasonable, you might possibly understand why Bearcat can appreciate, or tolerate Mods.

Because Storebror took a Thunderbolt, and spent some time to learn about the plane, and learn how to bring that Plane a bit closer to reality. Virtual reality.

You do not have to agree that mods are good.
But maybe you can understand that mods are not always "hacks and cheats" by intention.

[Bearcat]

Originally Posted by HundertneunGustav

You do not have to agree that mods are good.
But maybe you can understand that mods are not always "hacks and cheats" by intention.

Exactly ..

That is the very reason why I feel that the "debate" over mods is silly and a waste of enrrgy often, depending on the language we use any kind of reasonable discussion can be cut off at the pass by a few words. There is a post right now over @ SHQ that is a classic example of how not to try to present a case if you want it to be discussed reasonably or be taken seriously. The fact that some of the mods were quite well done .. and would fit right in with TDs mission is a bright spot and reason why for me, the very existence of TD means a brighter future for this sim. That says that there is a group of folks who will continue to make improvements and add to the sim and they won't have an agenda like some of the mod communities definitely have. The P-51 load outs could use a look as well.. That they carried rockets is well known.. but not in the stock sim..... yet. It is doable. Perhaps a lot of this stuff is already in the pipeline for TD and because they are not being paid and have lives and jobs etc . it just takes a while. That's cool.... but I see a lot of features in the totality of 4.11 ... that started out as mods from the many bi directional axii that once went in ne direction only, to some of the chages in the QMB and more ..... so the mod=evil ... or appreciation for mods=a XXXXXX who just wants to see his favorite crate fly like a banshee and rule the skies .... that does not compute, and that notion along with the angst that fosters it needs to become a thing of the past. Even if there are still JERKS running around... I would love to see the day when 90% of the features requested for this sim over the years from the mission builder upgrades to the MDS and lots more ... are all in the stock sim and many reasons to fly modded will no longer exist. There will always be some who will prefer modded, there have been cries to open the sim from day one, or those who think that they can do a better job than the stock sim .. or that the stock FMs etc are just wrong.. but I bet if given a reasonable choice .. most would prefer to fly stock.. if for no other reason than security because from where I sit it is a fat that some mod packs seem to favor certain aircraft over others.. while other mod packs seem to be more neutral and where they have tweaked a certain plane they left the stock plane untouched. American planes have always .. it seems to me .. gotten less attention. It took TD to FINALLY .. even if quietly fix the Mustangs FM.. because it is definitely more stable now in 4.11 than in any incarnation of the sim, even when it was first introduced. I read where it wasnt touched .. but it is more stable than ever. Low and slow is still a death sentence as it should be but it is much improved.

[Jumoschwanz]

Originally Posted by HundertneunGustav

But maybe you can understand that mods are not always "hacks and cheats" by intention.

Originally Posted by Bearcat

Who would have thought that we'd have 6DoF in the stock sim 6 years ago? Guys were asking for it .. begging for it.. hoping for it.. and now we have it Great stuff going on here..

So that is a good reason because someone wanted something? A lot of people wanted Brittany Spears and Hitler but that doesn't mean they were any good or were better off getting it.

I guess I had a lot more faith and foresight in IL2 and it's creators than most people. There were right around two dozen official patches for IL2 released in ten years with tons of new aircraft and features, that was enough for me.
As soon as I heard the sim was hacked I knew it was trouble as far as splintering the community and compromising the reputation of IL2.

Before the sim was hacked a lot of individuals helped model aircraft and worked on other features of the sim through official channels working with Oleg and crew. If you want to call them hackers or modders do it, but no matter what they were Good Guys in my book.

But that was not enough for someone though. They either did not have the patience to work with the IL2 crew or they thought they could do a better job themselves. The guys who did not think about the community or working through official channels, and did not think about compromising the reputation of IL2 or splintering the community before they went on their merry ways, in my book those are the Bad Guys, and it is a pretty simple distinction between the two.

I am an old man with grey hair that was out of school before there was MTV, cell phones or IBM personal computers, so maybe I am easier entertained than younger people and have more patience and respect for things outside myself.....

[Bearcat]

Originally Posted by Jumoschwanz

Well Bearcat then why don't you take that advice and quit participating in something foolish? Debating it? I guess you have to here because you can not BAN people here for starting threads that have critical discussion on the subject like you can at the UBI General Discussion Forum huh? That is why I am banned from the UBI forum. That is what Hitler and other Dictator's do to those with critical opinions who want to practice free speech, and it has been your choice to follow their practices......

It is worth my time to try to make sure people see my point of view, which has always been that the negative impact that non-official mods have had on the IL2 Community and the IL2 sim itself makes them not worth spending time on except for those with self-serving motives.

To some people IL2 Sturmovik is a historical flight sim, to others it is a game, to some it is a social network, and to others who enjoy making mods it is a hobby. That is all fine because IL2 can be all those things, but at times in the past members of some of those groups have put their interests forward at the expense of others.

I was just reading a statement in another thread a modder made about decreasing the armor of tanks from their historical value in UP to "maintain game balance". That is a simple personal judgement call they have made there that can not be switched off by those flying UP. This is just like WD's big tirade about how HE thinks aircraft should overheat and his personal efforts to revert the overheating back to 4.10.

True, even the official version of IL2 is a judgement call, but it is an official judgement call by it's creators or those given the authority to do so, it is as good or better a judgement call than any others out there, and it is the most important to rally around.

For five years Bearcat you have tirelessly put energy into promoting mods on the UBI forum and you have tirelessly suppressed naysayers to serve your special interest. That is odd behavior for someone who considers it a waste of time huh?

WTF??!!!

First off ...... I pretty much agree with much of what you have said and I have always stated as much even 3 years ago when I was still a mod at UBI. My contention has always been and will always be that it would have been best if the sim had not been hacked .. but it was ... and as I have said I will always roll with whatever is most compatible with the stock sim.. Had TD been created 4 years ago shortly after the hack, the whole mod debate could have taken a different turn... but you lost me at the end (not that it may matter to you ...) .

HELLO!!

I have not been a mod @ UBI for two years so get your facts straight and since that time I have not been @ UBI much. Secondly I never suppressed anything .. What was suppressed, and this after the whole argument was beaten to death, was the arguments over the pros and cons of mods that always turned into flame fests rife with insults and slander and were moot because the sim was modded. Period. I was not the one who banned you .. not that I recall anyway .. because I usually lifted bans pretty quickly and only issued them for obvious infractions .. not just disagreeing with me... I never rolled that way. Anyone I banned got banned for a reason and the fact that they may have disagreed with me on a particular subject was secondary to the reason for the ban. For you to bring that up now is mind boggling to me.. especially since as I said .. I have been a mod @ UBI for two years almost to the day.

There is a better chance now for the stock sim to recapture a base that was lost to mods than at any time since this all started. So if stock is your thing is it not better to just promote that instead of complaining about something that will not change. The only thing that will change the mod situation to any substantial degree is for TD to continue to do what they are doing and incorporate as many of the features, many that were longtime requests from day one into the stock sim as long as they do not conflict legally or historically or compromise the standards of the sim set forth initially by 1C. Many of the things they have implemented have done just that.

Topics like these were common, when the whole modding thing came "to the public". I have red them when... 2007? 2008?
And never has anything been achieved, besides stating different opinions, and when the discussion derailed (not IF, more like WHEN - they almost always did) a moderator had to intervene. And that always sucks.

Pretty much...


So ....if you have an axe to grind with me then take it up in a PM from here on out... This discussion is going apace ... regardless to either your or my opinions .. it seems as if it is leaning towards not that mods are good or bad but what can make the sim better.. and we all seem to agree that making the stock sim more appealing is the answer, and that's a good thing.