The Crystal Ball

[bongodriver]

Originally Posted by Ben Scammell

The above post by Bongodriver is eloquent as always, but typifies the 'whinging-about-whinging'. It has become a sprt in itself, a game (it has to be a game because there is so little factual substance to it.)

Most of of this type of post is 'getting your retaliation in first'.

Of course, attempt to head off any perfectly valid and justified critcisms at the pass...makes those facts and criticisms disappear, pfft, just like that. Err....

Ben

eloquent whinging.......I like it, I see youre not used to playing sport on an even field then, you only like it when you face no challenge.

[philip.ed]

Eloquent whinging, masquerading as hypocriticism? Interesting.

Bongo...for pity's sake...it isn't a semantic game for the vast majority. It's a game that doesn't work anywhere near how it should, for a great number of people, some of whom have spent a great deal of money.

Dragging it down to a keyboard fest does no-one any favours at all, least of all the devs. It may suit the fans to enmesh it all in meta-games and cod-witticisms (of a very low level), but the critics see through it by and large. It is a tactic, and a cheap one at that. And recognised as such.

Ben

[bongodriver]

Originally Posted by Ben Scammell

Bongo...for pity's sake...it isn't a semantic game for the vast majority. It's a game that doesn't work anywhere near how it should, for a great number of people, some of whom have spent a great deal of money.

Dragging it down to a keyboard fest does no-one any favours at all, least of all the devs. It may suit the fans to enmesh it all in meta-games and cod-witticisms (of a very low level), but the critics see through it by and large. It is a tactic, and a cheap one at that. And recognised as such.

Ben

interesting.....a great deal of money? a vast majority?

I bet most of us here have shelves stacked with games.......some that just gather dust....for that matter most of us probably have other items that cost far more just gathering dust, if you spent your kids college fund on a game then it's your problem.

I won't be so bold as to claim I have any statistics to claim a vast majority are happy, but I have noticed that I am not the only one that doesn't share your oppinions.

[bongodriver]

Originally Posted by philip.ed

Eloquent whinging, masquerading as hypocriticism? Interesting.

masquerading? I don't like an even playing field either, I much prefer being on the underdog side, the whingeing is quite overwhelming but I will take it on.

That soundss a bit am-dram to my ears, even for a game forum.

The irony being, of course, that an awful lot of criticism is drowned out, or ner-ner'd into non-existence, or deleted, or otherwise kicked into touch. The stuff of a personal nature I can understand.

Much less easy to discount, and answer, are the sheer facts.

How many people here with an opinion have been involved in complex dev with a public audience?

Ben

[bongodriver]

Originally Posted by Ben Scammell

That soundss a bit am-dram to my ears, even for a game forum.

The irony being, of course, that an awful lot of criticism is drowned out, or ner-ner'd into non-existence, or deleted, or otherwise kicked into touch. The stuff of a personal nature I can understand.

Much less easy to discount, and answer, are the sheer facts.

How many people here with an opinion have been involved in complex dev with a public audience?

Ben

if you spent any time actually reading these forums before spouting your internet tourettes you will se plenty of criticism remains.....it's just not nearly scathing enough for you.

Ignore my previous post - it was in suppor tof Philip_ed in a now-deleted 'Friday update' thread, as of a minute go, and mis-applied here.

Bondriver said:

I won't be so bold as to claim I have any statistics to claim a vast majority are happy, but I have noticed that I am not the only one that doesn't share your oppinions.

Of course. But the damning nature of much criticism-of-the-criticism leads me to believe you are a wee bit more passionate, and annoyed about it, than that. Or perhaps the realisation that having a go at the critics is not going to improve the game itself?

It isn't about having a monopoly on opion, or even a diversity. It's about getting to the core of just how bad things are, and why, and what is being done to improve them. If the past is skated-over semi-apologetically, and the future made a never-never land of rosy improvements (that seldom happen) what is the point?

There has to be a place for stating core issues in order of seriousness, and what is to be done about them in a meaningful way.

Until we see a proper diagnosis of just how bad things are, things are not likely to really improve, if at all. That is partly why the sillier defenders-of-the-faith should not be allowed to scattergun all critics just because it suits them. It benefits no-one - least of all them. At least, that is if they really do want to see major improvements and not just sling keyboards around. It is self-defeating, ultimately, to deny perfectly valid criticism, or attack it purely because of its tone. That is childish beyond words.

The outcry could be much worse than it is. It isn't about being scathing, or one-upmanship, it's about getting the facts down, and the extent of the breakages (severe).

Ben

[KG26_Alpha]

Originally Posted by Ben Scammell

Ignore my previous post - it was in support of Philip_ed in a now-deleted 'Friday update' thread, as of a minute go, and mis-applied here.

Nothings mis-applied or deleted, if you want to talk about updates or future patches, requests, development etc etc it will be moved here to stop the constant cluttering up of the forum main page with "where's my stuff" threads.

Please read the forum carefully in future.

Thank you.

[bongodriver]

Originally Posted by Ben Scammell

Ignore my previous post - it was in suppor tof Philip_ed in a now-deleted 'Friday update' thread, as of a minute go, and mis-applied here.

I won't be so bold as to claim I have any statistics to claim a vast majority are happy, but I have noticed that I am not the only one that doesn't share your oppinions.

Of course. But the damning nature of much criticism-of-the-criticism leads me to believe you are a wee bit more passionate, and annoyed about it, than that. Or perhaps the realisation that having a go at the critics is not going to improve the game itself?

It isn't about having a monopoly on opion, or even a diversity. It's about getting to the core of just how bad things are, and why, and what is being done to improve them. If the past is skated-over semi-apologetically, and the future made a never-never land of rosy improvements (that seldom happen) what is the point?

There has to be a place for stating core issues in order of seriousness, and what is to be done about them in a meaningful way.

Until we see a proper diagnosis of just how bad things are, things are not likely to really improve, if at all. That is partly why the sillier defenders-of-the-fait. h should not be allowed to scattergun all critics just because it suits them. It benefits no-one - least of all them. At least, that is if they really do want to see major improvements and not just sling keyboards around.

The outcry could be much worse than it is. It isn't about being scathing, or one-upmanship, it's about getting the facts down, and the extent of the breakages (severe).

Ben

Simply....no, the scathing criticism must be countered here, the Nett result of all the whinging is actually going to damage the prospects for this game, I have also invested money here and want my dollar to come to fruition, the accusations of being a 'fanboi' are quite unfounded on me, you will have no luck dragging up a post where I blindly 'hi5' Luthier and claim nothing is wrong.

The 'core' issue here is the game didn't work particularily well on release, the devs even openly accepted that, they have subsequently laid out a roadmap as to what they are trying to achieve, they did try to make some updates but were met with hostility from the outset, so here we are living with the consequences......way to go.