Bf109 information, lighting a fuse and running for cover!

[ACE-OF-ACES]

The link is not working for me.. Is it the link that shows the IL-2 Bf-109K-4 has a climb rate that is 30% better than the real life Bf-109K-4?

[Faustnik]

Originally Posted by ACE-OF-ACES

The link is not working for me.. Is it the link that shows the IL-2 Bf-109K-4 has a climb rate that is 30% better than the real life Bf-109K-4?

I done think the 109 in this link has a Mercedies engine.

The pilot said that the 109 was lighter that the p-51 and the center gun was good. That makes sence. Nothing what we have read about before.

One 109 kills 17 Spit in 8 min. Thats funny. .


(sorry about the poor righting. I'm working on it.)

[CaptainDoggles]

A lot of misleading statements on that website, like this gem:

The P-51 could not be yawed and had to be flown at the target for its bullets to hit the target.

Or perhaps this one:

Because of the fantastic handling characteristics of the Me109, the P-51 was not match for the Me109.

Making a blanket statement of two contemporary fighters like this is almost always false. I think at high altitude the two fighters were probably rather well-matched, but it's hard to make an accurate judgment because by 1944 the Luftwaffe was in a sorry state and I can't imagine many engagements occurred on equal terms. More likely the USAAF were gang-banging the Luftwaffe fighters from above with superior numbers.

Certainly as an interceptor the Bf 109 is far superior, and much data exists to support this conclusion. Similarly the P-51's design suits it well as an escort fighter. Plentiful small-calibre ammunition and lots of fuel. Its job is to force the interceptors down, away from the bombers it is protecting. Kills are a bonus.

[ACE-OF-ACES]

Originally Posted by CaptainDoggles

but it's hard to make an accurate judgment because by 1944 the Luftwaffe was in a sorry state and I can't imagine many engagements occurred on equal terms. More likely the USAAF were gang-banging the Luftwaffe fighters from above with superior numbers.

I agree with everything you said.. except that above

It is a bit of a myth.. Not saying that never happened, only that it was not the case in all cases

First thing you have to consider is that it is harder to play defence.. The US planes had to out number the enmy because they had to cover the B17s from all sides.. Left, Right, Rear, and Front.. Where as the Lw would gather up all thier planes and make an attack from one of those sides..

For example, say there were 100 escorts and only 40 enemy planes attacking

The 100 would be split up into 25 rear, 25 left, 25 right, and 25 front.. So if the Lw attacked with all 40 planes from the left.. it would result in a 40 vs 25 fight.. Now conisder that most of these fights only lasted a few min.. It was over by the time the other three groups would make their way over to the fight

So, in that case you can see that 'per fight' it was not allways the case that the Lw was out numbered.. As in 5 US vs 1 Lw.. If anything it was the other way around

And before anyone jumps me here.. Note I am not saying this was the case in every case.. All I am pointing out is the idea a Lw 109 fighter was allways outnumbered (jumped by 4 or more Mustangs) in every case is a myth

[ACE-OF-ACES]

It is also a bit of a myth that the USAAF allways had a altitude advantage.. The Lw would enter the area at a hight above that of the bombers.. Just ecanse the escorts picked them up prior to the B17s.. They knew the escorts hung out above the bombers..

Granted once the Lw got into position to attack the bombers.. they would dive down to the bombers giving up the alt advantage.. but at the same time trading alt for speed

[ACE-OF-ACES]

And it should also be noted that the Lw was not interested in shooting down the escorts.. They avoided them at all cost.. The goal was to get to the bombers.. Many a poor 109 was shot down while trying to line up the B17 as a P51 snuck up the 109s rear.. Long story short, the dog fight was the exception to the rule.. Where each fighter knew he was in a fight with the other.. Most pilots were shot down before they even knew they were in a fight.. Which was the case for most if not all of Hartmans victums due to Hartmans never turn tatics

[5./JG27.Farber]

Anyway back to this website... (and all the others like it)

I was talking to a Aeronautical engineer over steam (I will let him name himself if he wishes) he basically said something like, "just like any other flight page, this is grains of truth mixed with BS..."

So I guess what we have learned here is that none of the information we ever find will give us definative answears on aircraft performance... These debates of this source said this and that source said that will just continue... Would be nice if we just new the right physics for the game but I suppose it will always be a bit of science and a bit of legend...

[CaptainDoggles]

Originally Posted by 5./JG27.Farber

Anyway back to this website... (and all the others like it)

I was talking to a Aeronautical engineer over steam (I will let him name himself if he wishes) he basically said something like, "just like any other flight page, this is grains of truth mixed with BS..."

Most flight websites are like this, but there are some good ones out there. You have to be literate in the underlying math and physics to discern between the two, though.

So I guess what we have learned here is that none of the information we ever find will give us definative answears on aircraft performance... These debates of this source said this and that source said that will just continue... Would be nice if we just new the right physics for the game but I suppose it will always be a bit of science and a bit of legend...

It's always science.

The problem is that aircraft performance is complicated stuff, and this is compounded by the fact that aircraft design was a nascent art at the time. Lessons were still being learned, and they don't necessarily do stuff the same way we do things now.

On top of that, things get lost over the years and much of the available data is incomplete.

Aircraft performance is ideally recorded in conjunction with the atmospheric conditions on the day the test was flown. That data is then converted to standard atmospheric conditions. The data is supposed to represent an idealized aircraft flying in the standard atmosphere, and engineers understand that aircraft performance exists as a range of values within an acceptable tolerance.

Test data can often contradict other test data. Sometimes the reasons for the contradiction can be discovered if there is qualitative data accompanying the test. Often this data does not exist or is insufficient and so the difference cannot be resolved. This is where the "legend' bit comes into play.

[CaptainDoggles]

Originally Posted by ACE-OF-ACES

Long story short, the dog fight was the exception to the rule.. Where each fighter knew he was in a fight with the other.. Most pilots were shot down before they even knew they were in a fight..

Very true, and this is why I feel that the OP's website is silly when it makes pronouncements like "The Bf-109 was superior to the P-51"

[xnomad]

Originally Posted by ACE-OF-ACES

It is also a bit of a myth that the USAAF allways had a altitude advantage.. The Lw would enter the area at a hight above that of the bombers.. Just ecanse the escorts picked them up prior to the B17s.. They knew the escorts hung out above the bombers..

Granted once the Lw got into position to attack the bombers.. they would dive down to the bombers giving up the alt advantage.. but at the same time trading alt for speed

Don't forget that the targets for the LW were the bombers. Near the end of the war there wasn't much fuel about so they only took off when the bombers were close enough to intercept directly. They didn't have the luxury of taking off early and climbing to a favourable position.

The allied fighters could be far ahead of the bombers and thus getting to the LW planes whilst they were still climbing. Also later in the war the order was given to actively seek and attack the Luftwaffe and her bases and not just fly escort. So the LW weren't even safe on the ground.