109 advice needed (climb)

[Robo.]

Originally Posted by KeBrAnTo

Piloting a better plane (or better FM if you want) only makes things a little bit easier from my point of view. If you are face to face with a guy who is good piloting his plane you're gonna have to do your best in order to shoot him down regardeless if the FM of your plane gives you a little advantage over the other plane.

+1 on tis mate!

But still, as for what Manu asked - equally good pilots in Bf 109E and Hawker Hurricane with Rotol prop at cca co-alt co-E = 109 pilot wins hands down (imho).

[SNAFU]

Originally Posted by Robo.

...equally good pilots in Bf 109E and Hawker Hurricane with Rotol prop at cca co-alt co-E = 109 pilot wins hands down (imho).

Here I would disagree.

Sure the 109 can use his smaller size and slightly better control at low speeds in scissoring it out, but the outcome is maybe 51/49 for him and not hands down. Or he can extend after a nose-to-tail manouver and try to gain 100m after 5mins run in one direction, so he actually lost, given his task of controlling an given airspace or escorting some bombers, because he has left that airspace trying to gain energy. Otherwise a good hurricane can be on the six of the 109 in a nose-to-nose manouver of a what so ever good 109 pilot fast enough to have one good chance of hitting and the one hitting first in 1vs1 is mostly the winner and the Hurricanes 8x0.303 simply wins.

So I in the 109 would go for a hook-up manouver and in the hope the Hurricanes misses his first chance of hitting me and I don´t and then scissor it out, because I would define running away for a better E-situation as an lost encounter. I would be interested in how you would win against a Hurri on co energy hands down?

[Sven]

I think the Hurricane Rotol is the best plane allies have excluding the Spit II.

A good Hurricane pilot is well able to defeat a 109 in manoeuvres the 109 should excel atm.

[Whiski]

Very interesting post. I would be hard pressed to determine a winner of a 109 vs hurri (both pilots experten) on level playing field.

Tactics, counter tactics, gunnery, so many variables to consider. Barring the fm of the planes in CLoD, the 109 did have superior flight characteristics, but they could be out flown by an experienced pilot. Tactics is the deciding factor here, who uses the right tactic at that precise moment to get the advantage. I think of it like a chess game, all the moves during the game try to lead your opponent into a position for you to achieve victory, whether or not your opponent takes your bait is another story, or will he use your moves against you. Being able to plan ahead (as in chess) is a big factor.

Whiskey

[Robo.]

Originally Posted by Whiski

Tactics, counter tactics, gunnery, so many variables to consider. Barring the fm of the planes in CLoD, the 109 did have superior flight characteristics, but they could be out flown by an experienced pilot. Tactics is the deciding factor here, who uses the right tactic at that precise moment to get the advantage. I think of it like a chess game, all the moves during the game try to lead your opponent into a position for you to achieve victory, whether or not your opponent takes your bait is another story, or will he use your moves against you. Being able to plan ahead (as in chess) is a big factor.

Whiskey, excellent post - I am using the chess game comparsion very often, too regarding dogfight. (1 on 1)

[Robo.]

Originally Posted by Sven

I think the Hurricane Rotol is the best plane allies have excluding the Spit II.

It is faster and climbs better than Spitfire Mk.Ia, but on the other hand, it's much less maneuvrable. Speed makes Hurri more dangerous for 109s, I agree, but in my personal opinion, Rotol Hurricane and Mk.Ia Spitfire are equally good and capable, choice depends on preference of the pilot. (Some need the maneuvrability, some need the speed and stability). I suppose the FMs will be altered as having a Hurricane that outperforms Spitfire is bizarre 109 needs attention, too.

Originally Posted by Sven

A good Hurricane pilot is well able to defeat a 109 in manoeuvres the 109 should excel atm.

PILOT is not able to defeat a PLANE. If you talk about good pilot in a Hurricane, then he's defeating the (perhaps not as good) pilot in a Messerschmitt. Messerschmit as such (plane) is much better fighter than Hurricane (plane). Pilot can obviously close the gap in performance.

If you can, please do specify which maneuvers do you mean.

[Robo.]

Originally Posted by SNAFU

Here I would disagree.

Sure the 109 can use his smaller size and slightly better control at low speeds in scissoring it out, but the outcome is maybe 51/49 for him and not hands down.

Of course, personal opinion, feel free to disagree. 109 is faster, more powerful (except at high alt), climbs better, dives better, rolls better, has cannons, no problem to push your sexy yellow nose down . But if you slow down, you're dead. I am talking good 109 pilot against equally good Hurricane pilot. And this good 109 pilot will not even think about slowing down into scissors or turning with you in a Hurricane. He will scissor with you at high speed though, because that's when your Hurricane becomes a brick. When he's good and confident enough, he will outturn you in descending spiral with no problems at all - you'll be struggling in a Hurricane. He will be able to extend from this spiral (shall he not suceed shooting you down) with far more E than you and go vertical and do whatever he wants. Your only chance will be good defense making him waste ammo, but if he's not doing anything silly, it's just matter of time and you will lose. Just an example...

9 out of 10 duels in favour of a Messerschmitt

Originally Posted by SNAFU

Or he can extend after a nose-to-tail manouver and try to gain 100m after 5mins run in one direction, so he actually lost, given his task of controlling an given airspace or escorting some bombers, because he has left that airspace trying to gain energy. Otherwise a good hurricane can be on the six of the 109 in a nose-to-nose manouver of a what so ever good 109 pilot fast enough to have one good chance of hitting and the one hitting first in 1vs1 is mostly the winner and the Hurricanes 8x0.303 simply wins.

I am talking 1 on 1 - aeroplane that extends horizontally or vertically is not losing, the fight is finished when one of the two gets shot down. Bombers don't matter! I am talking more fighter against a fighter at co-E situation, not multi-target enviroment.

Originally Posted by SNAFU

So I in the 109 would go for a hook-up manouver and in the hope the Hurricanes misses his first chance of hitting me and I don´t and then scissor it out, because I would define running away for a better E-situation as an lost encounter. I would be interested in how you would win against a Hurri on co energy hands down?

I would extend (possibly vertically) and then I would repeatedly hit him with bullets untill he crashes and dies. If you start turning with Hurricane, slowing down in the process or if you're thinking about horizontal scissors in front of a Hurricane, you're dead.

This is quite hypothetical as co-E fights rarely happen and sane German pilot would extend ond come back with an E advantage (RAF dude can't extend as he's slower), but if we take classic duel, 1st merge no shooting, co-E, co-alt => 109 will climb higher and will possibly win the fight. Hands down that is.

[SNAFU]

Originally Posted by Robo.

Of course, personal opinion, feel free to disagree. 109 is faster, more powerful (except at high alt), climbs better, dives better, rolls better, has cannons, no problem to push your sexy yellow nose down . But if you slow down, you're dead. I am talking good 109 pilot against equally good Hurricane pilot. And this good 109 pilot will not even think about slowing down into scissors or turning with you in a Hurricane. He will scissor with you at high speed though, because that's when your Hurricane becomes a brick. When he's good and confident enough, he will outturn you in descending spiral with no problems at all - you'll be struggling in a Hurricane. He will be able to extend from this spiral (shall he not suceed shooting you down) with far more E than you and go vertical and do whatever he wants. Your only chance will be good defense making him waste ammo, but if he's not doing anything silly, it's just matter of time and you will lose. Just an example...

9 out of 10 duels in favour of a Messerschmitt



I am talking 1 on 1 - aeroplane that extends horizontally or vertically is not losing, the fight is finished when one of the two gets shot down. Bombers don't matter! I am talking more fighter against a fighter at co-E situation, not multi-target enviroment.



I would extend (possibly vertically) and then I would repeatedly hit him with bullets untill he crashes and dies. If you start turning with Hurricane, slowing down in the process or if you're thinking about horizontal scissors in front of a Hurricane, you're dead.

This is quite hypothetical as co-E fights rarely happen and sane German pilot would extend ond come back with an E advantage (RAF dude can't extend as he's slower), but if we take classic duel, 1st merge no shooting, co-E, co-alt => 109 will climb higher and will possibly win the fight. Hands down that is.

Well, sorry not convinced, but no more questions. I suggest to the interested reader to read between the lines and not follow blindly hands down.