Daidalos Team's Room -QUESTIONS AND REQUESTS ONLY - For 4.11

[Tempest123]

I have a small request. There are many times when I would like to fly as a pilot or bombardier, but not both, in single player. I find it tedious to have to fly the aircraft, aim the bombsight and worry about fighters at the same time.
I think it would be realistic to allow the aircraft to be flown by AI (autopilot), and still have manual control of the bombsight and bomb release. And on the flipside, it would be nice to have an AI fellow as your bombardier so I could concentrate on flying.
Any thoughts?

[Anvilfolk]

I'm part of the CVW-13, and we mostly fly VT-13, a torpedo squadron. We love flying formations and all that Zekes vs Wildcats, but on servers with more flak, the risk/reward of torpedo bombing is really off.

Apparently the problem is that the explosive charge is not enough. It is realistic, but since ships only have "above the waterline armour", then the effect of explosives on a less protected, below the waterline area is not modelled. Therefore, each torpedo does a minimal, irrealistic amount of damage.

I would suggest counter-balancing by either 1) having torpedos with more explosives, or 2) modelling underwater armour as well as above waterline armour. Either way, if ships entered evasive manoeuvres, it would be the best thing ever

Cheers!

[SaQSoN]

Originally Posted by Anvilfolk

since ships only have "above the waterline armour", then the effect of explosives on a less protected, below the waterline area is not modelled. Therefore, each torpedo does a minimal, irrealistic amount of damage.

a) there is no difference between "underwater" and "above water" strength of the ship hulls in the game, in other words, there is no such thing as "above the waterline armour", or "below the waterline armour" in the game;
b) real life WWII war ships had more or less adequate underwater protection, especially designed to withstand underwater ordnance detonation;
c) and finally, just as my personal opinion: most torpedoes in the game are way too effective, comparing to the real life, actually. Even destroyers and transports, which didn't have the underwater protection could often survive single torpedo hit IRL. In the game - they don't.

[Romanator21]

Torpedo-bombing was certainly a thankless job. Single "kills" were rare, and it was really a group effort. (Another reason for dividing points online for a shared kill: everyone wants to be the last one to drop the torpedo)

On the other hand, even one torpedo hit would do damage - the ship might list, slow down, or sit dead in the water. Many ships in the game have an "all-or-nothing" DM: The ship is either healthy, or stopped and sinking... Even the big ships like BBs and carriers have their simplifications.

Unfortunately, Il-2 wasn't designed as a sim for torpedo bombers, so many concessions were made in ship modeling. In order to be up to par with folks' and my own desires, everything about the ships will have to be redone completely from scratch: ship AI, convoy behavior, subs that dive, and also more detailed DM so players can damage the engines, blow up magazines or fuel, knock out guns, or destroy the bridge, etc. That's a Herculean task.

Somewhat related: In Silent Hunter 3 (a sub game) one has to make sure his torpedoes are going to hit the hull of the ship perpendicularly. If the angle is too shallow between the path of the torpedo and the side of the hull, an impact-pistol torpedo can bounce off, doing no harm. Magnetic-pistol torpedoes explode under the hull, eliminating this restriction, but as far as I know, planes didn't carry those (you have to know the draught of the vessel you're going to hit).

[EJGr.Ost_Caspar]

Originally Posted by Tempest123

I think it would be realistic to allow the aircraft to be flown by AI (autopilot), and still have manual control of the bombsight and bomb release. And on the flipside, it would be nice to have an AI fellow as your bombardier so I could concentrate on flying.
Any thoughts?

I understand, what you are heading for, but wasn't the bombadier flying the plane during bomb run?

[SaQSoN]

Originally Posted by EJGr.Ost_Caspar

I understand, what you are heading for, but wasn't the bombadier flying the plane during bomb run?

On some planes - yes, on some other - no. And on some even others, bombardier was controlling plane indirectly through bombsight, connected to an autopilot.

Actually, most of the bombsights in IL-2 game are very simplified operation-wise, or even worse - work completely different, then IRL.

On top of that, bombardier in the game is actually same, as the pilot. Bombardier and bombsight views in game are just another viewpoints for the pilot, from the game mechanics point of view. And that, I believe, is main and most difficult to overcome problem, which wouldn't allow making more realistic bombardier to pilot operation and cooperation in the game.

[Pursuivant]

Originally Posted by Tempest123

I think it would be realistic to allow the aircraft to be flown by AI (autopilot), and still have manual control of the bombsight and bomb release. And on the flipside, it would be nice to have an AI fellow as your bombardier so I could concentrate on flying.

For planes equipped with the Norden bombsight, you can already do this. Training video here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1BY3i7BlCPo

Some late war RAF and Luftwaffe planes had similar sights, which allowed the bombardier to essentially fly the plane during the bomb run, but the British and German versions of the Norden sight aren't yet in the game.

What isn't in the game is an AI pilot who will respond to your commands as bombardier. This would be much the same thing as the Norden sight, but with slower feedback and more chance of error if the pilot overcorrects, undercorrects or doesn't react in time.

[Anvilfolk]

Thanks for the answers, SaQSoN and Romanator. Appreciated

I've noticed that whenever the torpedo doesn't hit near a 90 degree angle, sometimes it won't even take down a destroyer. I think it is related to angle but I'm not sure. can anyone clarify?

Another question is whether hitting the same area repeatedly does more damage than hitting separate areas. For vanilla and/or UP, this information would be nice to have

For instance the carrier damage models are great (I only fly UP, so I'm not sure if it's their modification) for carriers. They get craters making take-off hard/impossible, and they list, and all that.

And if anyone could point me to statistics about how many torpedoes it took to take out ships in general, I'd love to read about it. I'm trying to figure out the actual effectiveness of torpedo bombing!

Thanks again!

[Tempest123]

Originally Posted by Pursuivant

For planes equipped with the Norden bombsight, you can already do this. Training video here...

Thanks, I wasn't aware that you could use trim to steer on level stabilizer. I was thinking maybe an AI pilot who would take care of overflying the target himself, so that the bombardier didn't have to make so many corrections.

[Pugo3]

Hello, new to this forum and very late making this inquiry. I realize this will most likely not rank as a high priority item, but might you include a toggle option in the set up to have the option of close in 'twist and turn' combat, B&Z, or random (with 3-way toggle) while flying offline?

I've found that if I fight any AI aircraft whose performance is greater than the one I'm flying, it will not engage in classic dogfighting, but always climbs away to begin the B&Z. This prevents one from ever knowing how the planes compare in close while flying offline.

I hope you will consider including this option in the future at some point, as it would greatly increase the quality of the AI offline experience for those wishing to see how the aircraft compare in close in fighting while flying offline.

Thanks for all the great work, love Il-2 and would love to see this feature in the game.

Respectfully,

Pugo3