The Battle of Britain Was The First Defeat For The German Luftwaffe.

[bongodriver]

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

It was an uncalled for post, but as you know I can only guarantee for my own posts, not others'. I hope you're not comparing my approach to that one though.



I would look at a foreigner's perspective on my country as a refreshing and new one, not necessarily a negative one. The reaction I got instead is similar to someone that knows his past is imperfect and gets all aggressive when mentioned.

Let's not be naive, there's no perfect country out there, we all come from somewhere where someone at some point said "mmmh I think we screwed this up a lil bit".

Again I will stress there are no denials of any conduct good or bad from my part, I just don't get the point of all this revision on a past achievement, what was wrong with the established theory, why are people using so much of their time on this, will the world be a better place?

[Bewolf]

Originally Posted by bongodriver

Again I will stress there are no denials of any conduct good or bad from my part, I just don't get the point of all this revision on a past achievement, what was wrong with the established theory, why are people using so much of their time on this, will the world be a better place?

Yes, actually, I do think the world will be a better place if you take other perspectives but your own at least into consideration. The planet is growing awfully small at an ever greater pace, and our example here alone speaks volumes about different nationalities having ever more discourse. The times of comfy nationalities only caring for their own are coming to a dead end, in the modern world that means, in the best case, stagnation and losing attachment to the rest of the world, in the worst one it is potentially dangerous.

[bongodriver]

Originally Posted by Bewolf

Yes, actually, I do think the world will be a better place if you take other perspectives but your own at least into consideration. The planet is growing awfully small at an ever greater pace, and our example here alone speaks volumes about different nationalities having ever more discourse. The times of comfy nationalities only caring for their own are coming to a dead end, in the modern world that means, in the best case, stagnation and losing attachment to the rest of the world, in the worst one it is potentially dangerous.

Hmmm......history repeats itself, all it takes if for the world to drop it's guard in false sense of security and whammo, some nutjob is trying to take over the world, I'm sorry but if the rest of the world want's to be sheep for the next time thats your choice, I like what we have now.

and I'm afraid a bit of National pride will give the incentive to defend it.

[Bewolf]

Originally Posted by bongodriver

Hmmm......history repeats itself, all it takes if for the world to drop it's guard in false sense of security and whammo, some nutjob is trying to take over the world, I'm sorry but if the rest of the world want's to be sheep for the next time thats your choice, I like what we have now.

and I'm afraid a bit of National pride will give the incentive to defend it.

That is a highly probelamtic stance. If every potential development gets rejected just because something "could" go wrong, then I'd say that is a sorry and rather cynical state of mind.

Today most people on this planet have ready access to information far, far surpassing the possebilities of any era before. They also have access to other countries news and motivations unprecedendet in history. In all seriousness, if ppl do not get their act together under such positive circumstances, they probably never will. The implications of that for a world that just passed the 7 billion mark are, well, not so good.

This is just a matter of will, nothing more.

[bongodriver]

Originally Posted by Bewolf

That is a highly probelamtic stance. If every potential development gets rejected just because something "could" go wrong, then I'd say that is a sorry and rather cynical state of mind.

Today most people on this planet have ready access to information far, far surpassing the possebilities of any era before. They also have access to other countries news and motivations unprecedendet in history. In all seriousness, if ppl do not get their act together under such positive circumstances, they probably never will. The implications of that for a world that just passed the 7 billion mark are, well, not so good.

This is just a matter of will, nothing more.

Well maybe.......all I see is the EU, what a eutopian shiny rainbow coloured happy melting pot that is, Islamic fundamentalism....Hmmmm.....I like my head just where it is, no offence to them but I dont want to be forced to wear sandals and wail about Allah all the time, potentially the chinese are lining up for something big.........not sure, but if so I don't know what to expect with that one.

[Bewolf]

Originally Posted by bongodriver

Well maybe.......all I see is the EU, what a eutopian shiny rainbow coloured happy melting pot that is, Islamic fundamentalism....Hmmmm.....I like my head just where it is, no offence to them but I dont want to be forced to wear sandals and wail about Allah all the time, potentially the chinese are lining up for something big.........not sure, but if so I don't know what to expect with that one.

And you do not think that this stance is extrmely narrow and not doing any kind of justice towards both the EU and muslims in general? IMHO that threat perception is totally blown out of proportion. But that would be worth a thread on it its own

Being careful and on the watch is one thing, seeing dangers and threats around every corner is another one.

Provocative questions:

Could it be possible that the UK got burned so much in WW2 that it got its spyche damaged, like a person that got mugged always being afraid of the dark afterwards?

Why does that not apply to countries that suffered much more in WW2, like Poland, Russia or the Benelux countries?

Why is it that the UK had quite good relations with Germany until reunification, then afterwards starting one tabloid campaign after the other?

Those are honest question because quite franky, that is how some UK behaviours come over here.

[bongodriver]

Originally Posted by Bewolf

And you do not think that this stance is extrmely narrow and not doing any kind of justice towards both the EU and muslims in general? IMHO that threat perception is totally blown out of proportion. But that would be worth a thread on it its own

Being careful and on the watch is one thing, seeing dangers and threats around every corner is another one.

Provocative questions:

Could it be possible that the UK got burned so much in WW2 that it got its spyche damaged, like a person that got mugged always being afraid of the dark afterwards?

Why does that not apply to countries that suffered much more in WW2, like Poland, Russia or the Benelux countries?

Why is it that the UK had quite good relations with Germany until reunification, then afterwards starting one tabloid campaign after the other?

Those are honest question because quite franky, that is how some UK behaviours come over here.

Well I was clear about Islamic fundamentalism and not Islam as a whole...or do you put them in the same category?

The EU in a romantic aspect is what could have been if Germany unified europe without all the ethnic cleansing stuff etc......it could have been good, I wonder why it is so difficult to get the world to unify...it's almost like we all like who we are and dont like change.......not just the British.

Well I can't comment on why some tabloids behave like they do or indeed some of my fellow countrymen, but labelling us all because of this is no better than the stuff you accuse us of no? I like Germans, always had respect for them, and admire their technical ability, and to be honest whats the point in celebrating a military victory over an adversary you consider inferior....surely that would just be hollow, no we were faced with a far superior opponent and that gives a little bit of satisfaction to an underdog.

[Sternjaeger II]

Originally Posted by bongodriver

Again I will stress there are no denials of any conduct good or bad from my part, I just don't get the point of all this revision on a past achievement, what was wrong with the established theory, why are people using so much of their time on this, will the world be a better place?

I suppose it's not the specific case of the Battle of Britain, it's more a case of assigning improper definitions to events and giving special meanings to events that were important only in hindsight for the sake of national pride.

Was BoB a necessary battle? No.
Did it bring any change to the conditions at the beginning of the conflict? No.
Was it a victory for the British? It surely was for morale and propaganda.
Was it a military victory? No.

It's an important debate for many historians, and it's getting harder to deal with when thinking of recent conflicts (from the 80s onwards).

[bongodriver]

Was BoB a necessary battle? No.

Are you really sure about this......seriously, not necessary from whose perspective? and why the hell did it happen if thats the case?

Did it bring any change to the conditions at the beginning of the conflict? No.

Obviously because you can't change the actual events of history.....thats only done in forums, what it did do was change the conditions at the time i.e. the Germans expected to invade britain and they were denied so.

Was it a victory for the British? It surely was for morale and propaganda.

and our self preservation....somebody comes at you with a knife intending to stab you, you fight back and sefend yourself successfuly and escape the attack....thats a win for the defender and a lose for the attacker, even though he still has the knife and possibly the intent.

Was it a military victory? No.

So what....the RAF and LW are not military?

[Sternjaeger II]

Originally Posted by bongodriver

Are you really sure about this......seriously, not necessary from whose perspective? and why the hell did it happen if thats the case?

Hitler could have waited to bring such an attack on Britain, but he didn't, he was afraid that waiting too long before dealing with the "British matter" could be counterproductive. It's probably this haste that cost him that battle.

Obviously because you can't change the actual events of history.....thats only done in forums, what it did do was change the conditions at the time i.e. the Germans expected to invade britain and they were denied so.

yes, but it didn't affect the offensive potential of the German machine, as some believe. The RAF didn't give the Luftwaffe a blow from which they never recovered: they both lost similar numbers of potential, but soon caught up with production and achieved immense tactical experience from the battle.

and our self preservation....somebody comes at you with a knife intending to stab you, you fight back and sefend yourself successfuly and escape the attack....thats a win for the defender and a lose for the attacker, even though he still has the knife and possibly the intent.

fair enough, but this is again your personal achievement. It has nothing to do with the actual outcome of the battle.

So what....the RAF and LW are not military?

of course they are, but for the two air forces it was a mere war of attrition, neither of the two was annihilated by it.

Why there isn't such a strong battle identification with the one that raged over Europe after the Americans joined, which was longer, more dramatic and above all more decisive than the Battle of Britain itself?

The Battle of Britain is considered more by a conflict per se here, unlike the rest that happened, and that's again only because of propaganda needs.