water cannon

[Skoshi Tiger]

[QUOTE=unreasonable;323490]

IMHO, the mobs have been mostly apolitical youths out for some excitement, and judging from how fat some of them looked on the TV pictures they were certainly not hungry. Presumably they got bored waiting for the next CloD patch...

Some combination of carrots and sticks will be applied, mostly without any real belief that anything fundamental will change. The underclass will go back to their ghettos. The middle-class opportunist gansta wannabees will go back to their sociology courses at "university". And the bankers and politicians will go back to fleecing the society they have come to believe does not exist.
QUOTE]

Ah! So what your saying is the hash gun laws in the UK are designed to maintain the centurys old class based system and repress the majority of the population? Maybe the guys in the US have got it right after all?

[unreasonable]

[QUOTE=Skoshi Tiger;323513]

Originally Posted by unreasonable

Ah! So what your saying is the hash gun laws in the UK are designed to maintain the centurys old class based system and repress the majority of the population? Maybe the guys in the US have got it right after all?

Firstly, I am not sure that it is useful to speak of them being "designed" at all.

For US law (at least for constitutional law on which other law is based) it is meaningful to speak of design, since we know who the designers were, and through the texts of the laws themselves and various other writings we know much about their deliberate purpose and the intelligent way they went about constructing a system that, they hoped, would realize their goals.

In contrast, in English law a multiplicity of various accretions added over the centuries, driven by the needs and whims of the moment, in accord with the procedural principles of the time. Close scrutiny of judicial decision making, or in particular of debates within the House of Commons (the legislature) will reveal few signs of intelligence or purposeful activity at all, except on those few occasions when the system as a whole is in danger, when a brief spasm of defensive adjustment can be observed.

So while the US law and constitution may be compared to a motor vehicle (in which one passenger controls the steering wheel, another the "gas pedal" and a third the brakes), the UK constitution and law is better described as a termite colony, or perhaps a sponge.

Speaking of purpose in complex evolved systems of this kind is fraught with difficulties, and often leads to fallacy. The argument from design is the most familiar example, but neo-darwinian evolutionists do it too on occasion.

(For instance, we have probably all watched those interminable nature morality tales masquerading as documentaries in which we watch, for example, the antics of the bat eared froogle, whose large twitching ears are described as "perfectly evolved to suit the environment").

Secondly, whether the guys in the US have "got it right" is another matter: it rather depends on what "it" is.

What is wrong, for instance, with "maintain[ing] the centurys old class based system and repress[ing] the majority of the population?" The events of the last few days demonstrate only too clearly what happens when this vital task is neglected.

If in fact the "harsh gun laws" are, or are perceived to be "designed to maintain the centuries old class based system and repress the majority of the population", the fact that they are overwelmingly popular suggests that the vast majority of the population wants and needs to be repressed.

This is quite plausible, as the feeling of struggling against a powerful evil force is much more satisfying than facing the mundane challenges of work and family, at least for males. We both have the WOT and the WOD: for those youths too weak, cowardly or intelligent to enter the military there is the war on "the Feds" and "the establishment" as a substitute.

For females, the need for a strong (calm assertive) male dominant presence is obvious, as shown in "The Dog Whisperer", or indeed in the charming american romance featured in a previous posting. In the US the dames feel safe when their man has a gun. In the UK the gals feel safe when no-one has a gun.

On the class system: better just to think of it as a hugely entertaining national pastime.

[nearmiss]

The right to bear arms is written into US constitution. If your country has no such right, that is what it.

If you have rights and they are written in a contract with the people of your nation you should respect those contracts with the people enough to know those rights are substantial. You should never yield up any of your rights for the so-called common good.

Historically, enforcement of law was never a problem in Britain. The ultimate authority is based in the reprisal of the law, so to speak. It doesn't matter if a Bobbie had a gun, authorities for centuries have put criminals into dreadful prisons, made indentured servants out them, put them into the tower...etc. An accusation was enough to make the worst of the lot tremble.

Nowadays, liberal and so-called equitable treatment of criminals with lesser punishments will require Bobbie to have a gun or he'll get wasted.
When the authority and enforcement of law at the highest levels is compromised the tougher it will be for the man on the street.

Fact is... you will see more Bobbie with guns. Only when criminal punishments becomes extremely severe will you see a casual policeman walking and whistling along the lane, swinging his club like a band leaders baton.

[1.JaVA_Sharp]

it's too bad a lot of politicians over here see guns as children's playtoys and therefore forbid people to have them.

to me it's a bad way of thinking. And the examples are getting worse and worse...

[Sternjaeger II]

Originally Posted by winny

Number of Police officers killed in the UK since 1900 = Around 160.

Number of Police officers killed in the USA last year = Around 150.
(150 seems to be the average per year, the 70's averaged around the 190/200 mark)

So? I still don't get how this is related to the possession of firearms.

I don't want guns completely legalised in my country just because someone wants to collect them. Or gets off on shooting stuff..

Well that's very selfish, discriminatory and anti-democratic of you, and again, you can still legally detain and use firearms in this country. What if tomorrow they told you "we're banning videogames because they incite violence", would you be cool with that? And what's next? Uh yeah I tell you what, the Government proposed to BLOCK all social networks in case of further riots! Ha! Anything else? Shall we also lube our backholes? Why is the law abiding citizen that need to pay for the deficiencies of our policing system? Wake up!!!

If someone wanted to attack me with a knife I'd at least be close enough to defend myself.

yeah, if the person is bigger and stronger than you you don't stand a bloody chance. Ever heard the saying "don't bring a knife to a gunfight"?

I've had a gun pulled on me twice in my life, I still don't feel the need to own one.

Unfortunately I had the same experience in civilian life (won't even bother mentioning the military one), but this has nothing to do with the right to legally own arms. In one of the occasions of civilian life I had my Glock 23 in .40S&W with me, but I didn't do anything stupid because there was a lot of children and people in the supermarket as it was getting robbed. I'm afraid that, like many other cases, you're just afraid of something you actually don't know anything about.

Originally Posted by nearmiss

The right to bear arms is written into US constitution. If your country has no such right, that is what it.

If you have rights and they are written in a contract with the people of your nation you should respect those contracts with the people enough to know those rights are substantial. You should never yield up any of your rights for the so-called common good.

Historically, enforcement of law was never a problem in Britain.

Yeah, Northern Ireland was just a little accident

The ultimate authority is based in the reprisal of the law, so to speak. It doesn't matter if a Bobbie had a gun, authorities for centuries have put criminals into dreadful prisons, made indentured servants out them, put them into the tower...etc. An accusation was enough to make the worst of the lot tremble.

Nowadays, liberal and so-called equitable treatment of criminals with lesser punishments will require Bobbie to have a gun or he'll get wasted.
When the authority and enforcement of law at the highest levels is compromised the tougher it will be for the man on the street.

Fact is... you will see more Bobbie with guns. Only when criminal punishments becomes extremely severe will you see a casual policeman walking and whistling along the lane, swinging his club like a band leaders baton.

the really shocking thing is hearing the police forces of London, one of the most important cities in the world, which has been subject to terroristic attacks in the past and is gonna host the 2012 olympics, that they were not ready cos they didn't expect something like that to happen.. seriously?!?! You call that a police force?!?! Again, good luck if the world goes upside down..

[Sternjaeger II]

at least Cameron's gang now have changed the law for self defence in your household, cos if you killed or injured an intruder before you would still be charged with assault and manslaughter, go figure!!

[unreasonable]

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

Shall we also lube our backholes?

Well many of the older generation have seen Deliverance;

Mountain Man: "I bet you can squeal like a pig. Weeeeeeee! "
Bobby: "Weee!"

So we have an idea whose backholes need lubing.

Well worth getting/downloading BTW: a horrible illustration of the consequences of allowing the underclass to keep and bear arms.

[Sternjaeger II]

Originally Posted by unreasonable

Well many of the older generation have seen Deliverance;

Mountain Man: "I bet you can squeal like a pig. Weeeeeeee! "
Bobby: "Weee!"

So we have an idea whose backholes need lubing.

Well worth getting/downloading BTW: a horrible illustration of the consequences of allowing the underclass to keep and bear arms.

Man,that sounds so much Germany 1920-30...

[unreasonable]

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

Man,that sounds so much Germany 1920-30...

No, it is set in the Georgia backwoods.... Oh! I see, you are hinting that I am sounding like a communist! Or is it a nazi? Or a decadent Weimar republican trying vainly to prevent the spread of armed vigelanteism? Do tell.

[BadAim]

It is an unfortunate truth that most men would much prefer to be slaves so long as the food is good and the taskmaster isn't too harsh.

Chairman Mao said it best; "All political power comes from the barrel of a gun"

Those who would take your liberty must first get your guns, whether or not you hand them over voluntarily is irrelevant.