water cannon

[nearmiss]

Does anyone think that the Eastern Block countries, East Germany, Romania, etc. would have put up with the Russia communist oppression for over 50 years if they'd have had guns? They would have tried to do something to resist.

Does anyone think that the people in Somalia "today" would be under the oppression of the war lords, if the general population had access to guns?
They would try to do something to resist.

Does anyone think that the oppression in Darfur would be going on if the persecuted people had guns? They would try to do something to resist.

When people are empowered with the will resist, or they have guns and guts, they can make oppressors seek easier prey.

Guns are harmless, they are just metal objects like cars, hammers, screwdrivers, etc. You can kill someone with any of the three in the hands of the wrong person.

Guns can be a tool of dubious value of course against government oppression.

When Russia was at war with Afghanistan they had the big helicopter gun ships with the extremely fast "guns". The Russians could wipe out an entire village with one 4 second fly by. The Afghans were helpless with their handguns against such weapons and a well equipped enemy. America gave the Afghans the SAM, RPG. The Afghans began to knock down those gunships. This was a war too costly to continue for Russia, they loaded up and left.

Guns have a place, but in modern day warfare I'd say it is mostly in the minds of the people that think the ordinary handgun will be their salvation. Guns are not an end all solution to oppresive or aggressive governments. Guns can enable the people to resist and make subjugation of those people very difficult for aggressors.

[Sternjaeger II]

Originally Posted by nearmiss

Guns have a place, but in modern day warfare I'd say it is mostly in the minds of the people that think the ordinary handgun will be their salvation.

well mate, if/when the s**t really hits the fan, I doubt you'll save yourself with sophisms..

[Sternjaeger II]

+ 1000 to ruggbutt


you can actually see it in the arrogance and patronising attitude of their posts.. the conception and tolerance for others' ideas and principles is quite a random one here..

[Lixma]

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

You know what, in the end of the day it's your choice, your obstinate position on this has bore its consequences (Cumbria shooting, Hungerford, Monkseaton, Dunblane).

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

...what really really annoys me is all these advocates for a no-firearms society, which are frankly delusional and dont have the faintest idea of the world they live in.

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

It's this obstinate attitude that causes what happened with the riots, if police is not a lethal threat, people will simply ignore them.

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

....you can actually see it in the arrogance and patronising attitude of their posts.. the conception and tolerance for others' ideas and principles is quite a random one here..

If only people were as tolerant to other people's views as you, Sternjaeger.

[Sternjaeger II]

Originally Posted by Lixma

If only people were as tolerant to other people's views as you, Sternjaeger.

lol, touche', but it's only a reflection of what I normally get here...

you lot founded an empire on guns and violence and now live in complete denial, puh-leeease!

[ATAG_Doc]

I fear the person that is so trusting that they allow persons in power to have so much control over their lives. Such as the food you eat. The food supply itself. Everything I could not allow myself to be so dependent on elected persons to not have a change of heart and decide that I was not the kind of person that should be allowed to inhabit my own land. Don't think that it can't / wont happen. You have an open society? Have a lot of new people arriving that are just hanging around and their numbers grow? When they get large enough to become a voting force in a democracy its all too easy for a movement to plant seeds to take over from within then you will not have any choice. I don't like allowing anyone to have that power. Men are fallible and always will be.

[seaeye]

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

you lot founded an empire on guns and violence and now live in complete denial, puh-leeease!

You obviously have little idea how the empire was built, because it wasn't simply 'Guns and Violence'. The British Empire was a result of trade with other nations. Violence occured, but then it was hardly any more so than what was happening throughout the world at the time. The Empire actually brought peace to an otherwise contantly warring India, and developed and educated the lands that came under the British flag. If they didn't, no amount of guns and violence would have kept the system going for so long. It's really not how you think it was..

Read this for starters..

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Empire-Brita...5848858&sr=8-1

[Sternjaeger II]

Originally Posted by seaeye

You obviously have little idea how the empire was built, because it wasn't simply 'Guns and Violence'. The British Empire was a result of trade with other nations. Violence occured, but then it was hardly any more so than what was happening throughout the world at the time. The Empire actually brought peace to an otherwise contantly warring India, and developed and educated the lands that came under the British flag. If they didn't, no amount of guns and violence would have kept the system going for so long. It's really not how you think it was..

Read this for starters..

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Empire-Brita...5848858&sr=8-1

hahahahaha "Empire: How Britain Made the Modern World" seriously?!?! Another trumpet blowing self proclaimed historian that wrote a novel (which doesn't even come with references!!)..
Quoting one of the reviews:

1. The British Empire invented drug-running, in order to correct its balance of payments with China. Britain was importing vast quantities of Chinese tea, and the Chinese weren't choosing any British produce in return. So we conspired to get the Chinese hooked on opium, even though Chinese law stated the opium trade was illegal. The plan worked and we even used the Royal Navy to maintain it. That is plain British evil.

2. The British Empire invented the concentration camp, in the Boer War, where we interned innocent Afrikaans women and children. Blood on our hands again.

3. The British Empire invented the mass slave trade, or the Black Holocaust as it is otherwise known. Tens of millions died on British ships and in British plantations. We took it to diabolical levels, that far overshadowed the practices of the Romans, Ottomans, Arabs and a number of African states that were also involved. More blood on our hands.

4. The British Empire caused famines in Ireland and India, that killed millions of civilians, simply because we didn't take precautions for non-British races, precautions we did take in Britain.

5. The British Empire invented modern monopoly practices and asset-stripping: The Industrial Revolution took place in Britain shortly after Clive looted the Bengal Treasury (that became a record injection of revenue into the British economy) and established a monopoly for British produce in India. With the Portuguese, Dutch, French and all others shut out of the massive Indian market and the stupendous cash windfall there is no surprise Britain surged ahead. Imagine if just 1 European country had a monopoly on Indian trade today, its economy would boom.

6. The British Empire lied to and cheated the Jews and the Arabs during WW1, promising both groups what they wanted in the Middle East. After WW2, the British ran out of the Middle East, leaving us with the mess of the unending Arab-Israeli conflict and modern terrorism on the streets of London.

Have you actually ever been to the countries that you allegedly brought civilisation to? India, Sri Lanka, Pakistan, Rhodesia, Malawi, not to mention Latin America or the Pacific Islands/Australia...

It's unbelievable and somehow historically offensive that nowadays there's still people that praises the good done by the British Empire without considering all the bad that was done!

[nearmiss]

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

well mate, if/when the s**t really hits the fan, I doubt you'll save yourself with sophisms..

When it comes to shove back I think consideration of your adversary is important. If you are getting shot at....

I'd say IED and handguns can do a world of hurt as we have seen in Iraq and Afghanistan.

One thing about a gun, if you pull a gun on someone bluffing time is over. You shoot the dude, unless he becomes a whimpering mass of obsequious jelly.

I don't have much use for guns in daily life, but I do own many. It is really not good sense to discuss your gun ownership in most countries. The governments are very frightened of their own populations, look at London, Greece, Ireland... no sense going on about it. People all over the world are having real issues with their governments.

Guns can contribute significantly against government tyranny.

[ATAG_Doc]

Originally Posted by nearmiss

Does anyone think that the Eastern Block countries, East Germany, Romania, etc. would have put up with the Russia communist oppression for over 50 years if they'd have had guns? They would have tried to do something to resist.

Does anyone think that the people in Somalia "today" would be under the oppression of the war lords, if the general population had access to guns?
They would try to do something to resist.

Does anyone think that the oppression in Darfur would be going on if the persecuted people had guns? They would try to do something to resist.

When people are empowered with the will resist, or they have guns and guts, they can make oppressors seek easier prey.

Guns are harmless, they are just metal objects like cars, hammers, screwdrivers, etc. You can kill someone with any of the three in the hands of the wrong person.

Guns can be a tool of dubious value of course against government oppression.

When Russia was at war with Afghanistan they had the big helicopter gun ships with the extremely fast "guns". The Russians could wipe out an entire village with one 4 second fly by. The Afghans were helpless with their handguns against such weapons and a well equipped enemy. America gave the Afghans the SAM, RPG. The Afghans began to knock down those gunships. This was a war too costly to continue for Russia, they loaded up and left.

Guns have a place, but in modern day warfare I'd say it is mostly in the minds of the people that think the ordinary handgun will be their salvation.

That my friend is the reason you have the 2nd amendment in America. Perhaps the world doesn't understand that the Constitution in America does not state what the government will do for you or it's obligation towards its people. It is a charter of negative liberties against the government to restrain it. And specifically the 2nd amendment is not there to prevent authorities from not allowing people to own guns. Read this next part very carefully. It is there to prevent the government from turning on its people and changing it into any other system that the people do not authorize. It is a written threat and a promise that protects the right of the people to keep and bear arms. Not for sport. Not for coolness. But to CONTROL GOVERNMENT. Not the body itself. But the once in a while socialist that gets out of hand. We get torches and pitchforks first then elections and then the 2nd amendment remedy is there.