Inaccurate performance data for BOB fighters in COD comparing to RL data

[Glider]

Originally Posted by Crumpp

The Summary of the Seventh meeting is dated 18 May 1940.

I have to agree that your eyesight is spot on.

Kurfursts posting 176 was timed at 1.26pm, my reply posting 177 was timed at 1.41pm, Kurfursts posting 176 was amended at 1.44pm. I noticed the change and made another posting 178 to cater for the additional documents at 1.55pm
The postings crossed something Kurfurst noted in his posting 179 when commented ‘I did add a couple of others in the meantime.’

I hope that clarifies the position, just a co incidence.

I did send you a PM earlier about the references to sides in a posting that I didn’t understand. Can I ask you to clarify that for me please, in case I have misunderstood something.

Thanking you in advance

[Blackdog_kt]

As a by-stander in this with no real gameplay gains from the final verdict (i will fly pretty much everything, both sides of the sim), the way the whole thing reads to me is:


1) Fuel was the "property" of stations/airfields, not specific units.

2) Critical airfields received supplies of 100 octane fuel.

3) Units rotated between different airfields as operational needs dictated.

4) When a certain unit happened to operate from a field with 100 octane supplies they would use it, when operating from another field they would not.

5) This also explains why there are a lot of combat reports from different units mentioning the use of +12lbs boost.

I certainly can't believe they would be moving all their fuel supply with them whenever they changed stations

[Seadog]

Originally Posted by Blackdog_kt

4) When a certain unit happened to operate from a field with 100 octane supplies they would use it, when operating from another field they would not.

5) This also explains why there are a lot of combat reports from different units mentioning the use of +12lbs boost.

I certainly can't believe they would be moving all their fuel supply with them whenever they changed stations

Why are there no reports, memoirs, articles about RAFFC pilots complaining about the lack of 100 octane fuel for their squadron, station, etc? If some stations have 100 octane and others not, it would have created real problems for pilots landing at alternate bases to refuel, since they would be forced to put 87 octane in aircraft modded for 12lb boost, yet no mention of such problems has ever been recorded.

The idea that RAFFC fought the battle with mixed 87/100 octane Merlin engined squadrons is wrong, and is not supported by the historical record. The battle was fought with 100octane only.

[CaptainDoggles]

Originally Posted by Seadog

Why are there no ....

Absence of evidence does not equal evidence of absence.

[Kurfürst]

Originally Posted by Seadog

If some stations have 100 octane and others not, it would have created real problems for pilots landing at alternate bases to refuel, since they would be forced to put 87 octane in aircraft modded for 12lb boost, yet no mention of such problems has ever been recorded.

Because it wouldn't pose any technical problem, the plane would operate on +6.25 boost, and the boost cutout would not be used. In fact the Spitfire II manual from June 1940 notes exactly that, +6.25 boost limit on 87 octane, and +12 "When using 100 octane" or something along these lines.

Otherwise, you are like a broken record.

[Seadog]

Originally Posted by Kurfürst

Because it wouldn't pose any technical problem, the plane would operate on +6.25 boost, and the boost cutout would not be used. In fact the Spitfire II manual from June 1940 notes exactly that, +6.25 boost limit on 87 octane, and +12 "When using 100 octane" or something along these lines.

Otherwise, you are like a broken record.

So they land at another base and fuel up on 87 octane and then they return to their home base with a tankful of 87 octane...forcing the ground crews to drain it before commencing combat operations with other aircraft of the same squadron flying 100 octane? This would have been a logistical nightmare that would have drawn lots of comments, mostly to the effect that it would be much simpler for everyone to simply use 100 octane fuel. Which is fact was done.

[lane]

Originally Posted by Glider

This paper clearly and without any limitation says that the ACAS has requested that squadrons armed with fighters and Blenheims should begin to use 100 Octane

The second paper May 1940 which is for the Summary of actions for the 6th Meeting of the Oil Committee is the one that contains the magic Certain word. This paper specifically refers to item 9 of the Summary of the Conclusions of the 5th Meeting so it is clear that it is refering to the previous paper.

As I have said before I don't know why he said certain, but I do know that the first paper was clear and that the request was without limitation.
---
Concerned I take to mean that some will not need all the fuel removed. I would expect the large sector stations to keep some 87 Octane in a similar manner to Bomber Command and the Blenheims of No 2 group. The smaller stations would need to have the fuel removed as done for four stations in No 2 Group. Its worth remembering that some units started using 100 Octane in Feb 1940, before these decisions for a complete roll out were made so to some degree it was already out there and in use.
… So back to the first question I ever asked you, what is certain? Which units, which bases.

Originally Posted by Seadog

Why are there no reports, memoirs, articles about RAFFC pilots complaining about the lack of 100 octane fuel for their squadron, station, etc? If some stations have 100 octane and others not, it would have created real problems for pilots landing at alternate bases to refuel, since they would be forced to put 87 octane in aircraft modded for 12lb boost, yet no mention of such problems has ever been recorded.

The idea that RAFFC fought the battle with mixed 87/100 octane Merlin engined squadrons is wrong, and is not supported by the historical record. The battle was fought with 100 octane only.

Check out Post 88 from The use of 100 Octane Fuel in the RAF pt 2. Sometime prior to 7 December, 1939 100 octane fuel was authorized for Hurricane and Spitfire aircraft in Fighter Command. It is quite clear that it was HQ, Fighter Command’s intention to supply all those stations in the UK that held operational Hurricanes & Spitfires with 100 octane fuel.

The operational stations at which the fuel will be required in the first instance are: Acklington, Biggin Hill, Catterick, Debden, Digby, Drem, Duxford, Hornchuch, Leconfield, Manston, Martlesham Heath, Northhold, North Weald, Tangmere, Turnhouse, Croydon, St. Athan and Wittering. Church Fenton, Grangemouth and Filton also “will have Merlin engine aircraft that will require 100 octane fuel.





Taken from: Post 88

The Squadrons equipped with Hurricanes during December 1939 are as follows: 3, 17, 32, 43, 46, 56, 79, 111, 151, 213, 501, 504, 605.

During December 1939 these Hurricane Squadrons were stationed as follows.
3 – Croydon,
17 – Debden
32 – Biggin Hill
43 – Acklington
46 – Digby
56 – Martlesham Heath
79 – Manston
111 – Drem
151 – North Weald
213 – Wittering
501 – Tangmere
504 – Debden
605 – Tangmere

All these Stations were listed as requiring 100 octane fuel.

The Squadrons equipped with Spitfires in December 1939 are as follows: 19, 41, 54, 65, 66, 72, 74, 152, 602, 603, 609, 610, 611, 616.

During December 1939 these Spitfire Squadrons were stationed as follows:
19 - Duxford
41 - Catterick
54 - Hornchurch
65 - Northholt
66 - Duxford
72 - Drem
74 - Rochford
152 - Acklington
602 - Grangemouth
603 - Turnhouse
609 - Drem
610 - Wittering
611 - Digby
616 – Leconfield

Rochford is the only base not listed, however, 74 Operations Record Book indicates that they had 100 octane while at Rochford in March 1940.

Units converting to Hurricane or Spitfire after December 1939 and the station where they converted are as follows:

64 – Church Fenton
92 – Croyden
145 – Croyden
222 – Duxford
229 – Digby
232 – Sumburgh
234 – Leconfield
242 – Church Fenton
245 – Leconfield
253 – Manston
257 – Hendon
263 – Drem
266 – Sutton Bridge
302 – Leconfield
310 – Duxford
312 – Duxford
601 – Tangmere

Sumburgh is the only base not listed to receive 100 octane fuel. 232 formed there in July 1940.

With the one exception of Sumburgh, there is a perfect match between those stations that Fighter Command deemed required 100 octane fuel and those stations where all UK Spitfire & Hurricane operational squadrons were based. I looked through Rawling’s Fighter Squadrons of the RAF and the baseing info checks out.

[Blackdog_kt]

Originally Posted by Seadog

If some stations have 100 octane and others not, it would have created real problems for pilots landing at alternate bases to refuel, since they would be forced to put 87 octane in aircraft modded for 12lb boost, yet no mention of such problems has ever been recorded.

Because it's possible to change octane ratings as long as you keep to the relevant limits?

Again, cue the Blenheim Mk.IV pilot's notes where it's clearly stated that it was standard operating procedure to switch between 87 and 100 octane mid-flight: the only limitation was keeping boost within the appropriate limits for each fuel type, the engine won't suddenly explode if you just throttle back and switch to the 87 octane tanks, even though the engines were modified for 100 octane use.

[Kurfürst]

Originally Posted by lane

The operational stations at which the fuel will be required in the first instance are: Acklington, Biggin Hill, Catterick, Debden, Digby, Drem, Duxford, Hornchuch, Leconfield, Manston, Martlesham Heath, Northhold, North Weald, Tangmere, Turnhouse, Croydon, St. Athan and Wittering. Church Fenton, Grangemouth and Filton also “will have Merlin engine aircraft that will require 100 octane fuel.

So these are the Stations Fighter Command would seen advantagous of having 100 octane fuel?

These are about 1/3 of the stations used by fighters in the Battle of Britain - ca 20 Stations out of ca 60.

[*Buzzsaw*]

Originally Posted by lane

Check out Post 88 from The use of 100 Octane Fuel in the RAF pt 2. Sometime prior to 7 December, 1939 100 octane fuel was authorized for Hurricane and Spitfire aircraft in Fighter Command. It is quite clear that it was HQ, Fighter Command’s intention to supply all those stations in the UK that held operational Hurricanes & Spitfires with 100 octane fuel.

The operational stations at which the fuel will be required in the first instance are: Acklington, Biggin Hill, Catterick, Debden, Digby, Drem, Duxford, Hornchuch, Leconfield, Manston, Martlesham Heath, Northhold, North Weald, Tangmere, Turnhouse, Croydon, St. Athan and Wittering. Church Fenton, Grangemouth and Filton also “will have Merlin engine aircraft that will require 100 octane fuel.





Taken from: Post 88

The Squadrons equipped with Hurricanes during December 1939 are as follows: 3, 17, 32, 43, 46, 56, 79, 111, 151, 213, 501, 504, 605.

During December 1939 these Hurricane Squadrons were stationed as follows.
3 – Croydon,
17 – Debden
32 – Biggin Hill
43 – Acklington
46 – Digby
56 – Martlesham Heath
79 – Manston
111 – Drem
151 – North Weald
213 – Wittering
501 – Tangmere
504 – Debden
605 – Tangmere

All these Stations were listed as requiring 100 octane fuel.

The Squadrons equipped with Spitfires in December 1939 are as follows: 19, 41, 54, 65, 66, 72, 74, 152, 602, 603, 609, 610, 611, 616.

During December 1939 these Spitfire Squadrons were stationed as follows:
19 - Duxford
41 - Catterick
54 - Hornchurch
65 - Northholt
66 - Duxford
72 - Drem
74 - Rochford
152 - Acklington
602 - Grangemouth
603 - Turnhouse
609 - Drem
610 - Wittering
611 - Digby
616 – Leconfield

Rochford is the only base not listed, however, 74 Operations Record Book indicates that they had 100 octane while at Rochford in March 1940.

Units converting to Hurricane or Spitfire after December 1939 and the station where they converted are as follows:

64 – Church Fenton
92 – Croyden
145 – Croyden
222 – Duxford
229 – Digby
232 – Sumburgh
234 – Leconfield
242 – Church Fenton
245 – Leconfield
253 – Manston
257 – Hendon
263 – Drem
266 – Sutton Bridge
302 – Leconfield
310 – Duxford
312 – Duxford
601 – Tangmere

Sumburgh is the only base not listed to receive 100 octane fuel. 232 formed there in July 1940.

With the one exception of Sumburgh, there is a perfect match between those stations that Fighter Command deemed required 100 octane fuel and those stations where all UK Spitfire & Hurricane operational squadrons were based. I looked through Rawling’s Fighter Squadrons of the RAF and the baseing info checks out.

Great post.

The linkage is inescapable and provides solid proof.

The RAF was systematically supplying ALL Stations which had Merlin equipped aircraft with 100 octane fuel.

The 2nd memo indicates the process was ongoing. Church Fenton, Grangemouth and Filton are expected to be hosting Merlin equipped Squadrons in the near future, so they are added to the list of Stations requiring 100 octane.

This follows naturally with the conversion of RAF Fighter Squadrons from Gladiators/Gauntlets etc. to Hurricanes/Spitfires/Defiants during 1939 and early 1940. Gladiators/Gauntlets and all the obsolete types use 87 octane, of fighters, only Merlin equipped Spitfires/Hurricanes/Defiants use 100 octane.

Note also the stations requiring the fuel are "operational" stations, the stations not requiring the fuel are "nonoperational". Clearly the stations being supplied are central to the RAF's Tactical plan. Only Stations which are hosting Squadrons which have been declared operational are supplied, ie. only stations whose aircraft have been released to conduct interceptions, attacks etc. Ie. the fighting force of the RAF is stationed at fields with 100 octane. Squadrons which have not been released for combat are based at fields with no 100 octane supply. Again, the logic is inescapable, the RAF is preparing to fight with aircraft based at stations supplied with 100 octane fuel. Let us also remember, stations supplied with 100 octane DO NOT retain enough supply of 87 octane to fuel Squadrons based there who use that fuel type, only enough 87 octane is retained to supply the occasional aircraft which is forced to land due to mechanical or combat issues.