109 e3b against spitfire II

[335th_GRAthos]

Very nice post ICDP,

Just on that sentence

Originally Posted by ICDP

Or ban the Spitfire Mk IIa and watch the domination swing way in favour for the 109E because the Spitfire and Hurricane Mk Is have performance that is even further from reality than that of the CoD 109E.

I think we are very far from the Bf109 having an advantage to their favour.

Most fly "crappy" (I beg for forgiveness for this comment). Bf pilots can not Boom & Zoom which is the only thing the Bf109 was good at, because of three deadly parameters:
#1: No usable propeller pitch: congrats to the guys which made it "historically correct" and screwed up probably 99% percent of Bf pilots to that day. May God (ehem Oleg...) punish them by letting them stick to this Bf flight model for the next five years!
I admit I am subjective here, please read under 99 percent just myself, I stopped flying Bf and flying Spits, so it is a strictly private opinion/ it is mine and I will have to live with it (and I can, by not flying Bf109 any more).

2. Head movement restriction in gunsight mode makes a Bf109 pilot not been able to track the opponent while manouvering verticaly and aim for deflection shots at the same time ("lose sight, lose fight").
I spend seven years of my life flying Bf109 exclusively in IL2FB only to find myself unable to dogfight and shoot in a Bf109 in CoD
May God punish Luthier by having him dogfight non-stop in Bf109 gunsight mode for the next five years...

3. To add insult to injury(point #2): Poor graphics performance and smaller airplane size (maybe it is my subjective opinion) make difficult to recognise and track and airplane with the ground as background. Since the only way for the Bf109 to win a fight is on the vertical, it is much more difficult to track the enemy in CoD than in IL2FB.
My heart is full of condolence when I see these poor SODs in their Bf online, losing sight of me and by the time they have regained situational awareness my Spit is already behind them, and then game over. I can not even feel proud of shooting down Bf109s nowadays


Just my 2cts, I am sorry if I sound bitter, I am honestly not, I am more sarcastic than serious, now that I jumped the fence (and switched to Spit) my problem is solved and I enjoy the game. And hope for the best...with the patch, in three days

~S~

[TomcatViP]

resume of above edit :

Q: Why the 109 is useless against Spit II
A(s):
a/It's historical fact
b/we got crappy FM and the Spit hve to get the 12lbthat & that thing (that I miiss from IL2 )
c/ (added certainly to makes good figure) Oh ..; by the way the Hurri shld also get the 12lb eng

and so on and so on ...

C'mon guys : there was no 12lb Spits - there was AN EMERGENCY SWITCH in SOME of the plane based in england !
The Merlin XX did get 9lb boost and it was an after BoB engine
The FM of the Spits is simply surrealistic even for the MkI
This is not the number (perf achieved ) it's in the way it can turn and climb (E grabber) - TAKE TIME to fly in ALL the planes we hve for now: IT'S SO OBVIOUS !

So pls be constructive not selfish and don't touch the superb FM we hve for now for both the Hurri and the 109 to fit your own expectation.

Those men were brave. There were not in anyway counting on any X-men to fight for their freedom.

[jg27_mc]

Originally Posted by TomcatViP

resume of above edit :

Q: Why the 109 is useless against Spit II
A(s):
a/It's historical fact
b/we got crappy FM and the Spit hve to get the 12lbthat & that thing (that I miiss from IL2 )
c/ (added certainly to makes good figure) Oh ..; by the way the Hurri shld also get the 12lb eng

and so on and so on ...

C'mon guys : there was no 12lb Spits - there was AN EMERGENCY SWITCH in SOME of the plane based in england !
The Merlin XX did get 9lb boost and it was an after BoB engine
The FM of the Spits is simply surrealistic even for the MkI
This is not the number (perf achieved ) it's in the way it can turn and climb (E grabber) - TAKE TIME to fly in ALL the planes we hve for now: IT'S SO OBVIOUS !

So pls be constructive not selfish and don't touch the superb FM we hve for now for both the Hurri and the 109 to fit your own expectation.

Those men were brave. There were not in anyway counting on any X-men to fight for their freedom.

Are you crazy? Did you count how many years (in old IL-2) till the Spits FM was adjusted? It had to be an external team (TD) to do it, cause MG, over the years, were only interested in porking 109's.

Beware TomcatVIP, what your saying is going to be taboo even in a late stage of development of this simulation...

[ZaltysZ]

Originally Posted by 335th_GRAthos

2. Head movement restriction in gunsight mode makes a Bf109 pilot not been able to track the opponent while manouvering verticaly and aim for deflection shots at the same time ("lose sight, lose fight").

Then don't use gunsight mode.

[335th_GRAthos]

Originally Posted by ZaltysZ

Then don't use gunsight mode.

I presume you fly Bf109 all the time without gunsight mode so, I respect your experience (and hope there is more Bf109 pilots which share the same point of view).

Unfortunately, my LCD screen is too precious and I will not stick a chewing gum in the centre to compensate for the REVI... comedian!

[VO101_Tom]

With TrackIR, i can fly without gunsight mode (i have to...). Anyway i fly with 90 FOV in dogfight, all time. But took time while I got used to it
I dont know how can dogfighting anyone withouth trackir, or freetrack...

[ZaltysZ]

Originally Posted by 335th_GRAthos

I presume you fly Bf109 all the time without gunsight mode so, I respect your experience (and hope there is more Bf109 pilots which share the same point of view).

Yes, all the time. Zero experience required - just center the Revi.

[335th_GRAthos]

Originally Posted by ZaltysZ

Yes, all the time. Zero experience required - just center the Revi.

He, he, so you do centre the Revi after all....

and fly outside gunsight mode with the Revi centered.

And all the other poor sods without 6DOF will get stuck in their fate




PS. or can I do that without 6DOF as well?

[Viper2000]

Originally Posted by TomcatViP

resume of above edit :

Q: Why the 109 is useless against Spit II
A(s):
a/It's historical fact
b/we got crappy FM and the Spit hve to get the 12lbthat & that thing (that I miiss from IL2 )
c/ (added certainly to makes good figure) Oh ..; by the way the Hurri shld also get the 12lb eng

and so on and so on ...

C'mon guys : there was no 12lb Spits - there was AN EMERGENCY SWITCH in SOME of the plane based in england !
The Merlin XX did get 9lb boost and it was an after BoB engine
The FM of the Spits is simply surrealistic even for the MkI
This is not the number (perf achieved ) it's in the way it can turn and climb (E grabber) - TAKE TIME to fly in ALL the planes we hve for now: IT'S SO OBVIOUS !

So pls be constructive not selfish and don't touch the superb FM we hve for now for both the Hurri and the 109 to fit your own expectation.

Those men were brave. There were not in anyway counting on any X-men to fight for their freedom.

Pretty much all Spitfires & Hurricanes were running on 100 octane fuel with +12 psi war emergency power available during the battle. This is extensively documented.

All Spitfires and Hurricanes had boost control cutouts until later in the war when gated thottles began to appear.

You can get into an argument about how much boost was developed by operating the cutout; but at sea level it was never less than +12 (early Merlins prior to the +12 mods would actually deliver about +17 with the cutout operated, much to the detriment of the engine given that prior to +12 mods they were running on 87 octane).

Very few Merlin XXs took part in the Battle of Britain.

It's possible that they might only have been cleared to +9 in FS gear in the very early days. I haven't investigated this because I've never been especially interested in the early production Hurricane II; it's perhaps analogous to getting deeply involved in the performance of the Bf-109F0 in the same time period.

However, it seems extremely unlikely that the Merlin XX would not have been cleared to at least a +12 combat rating in MS gear at entry into service because in MS gear it's turning the 10.25" supercharger at 8.1516 times crankshaft rpm. This is lower than the Merlin III (8.588 ) or XII (9.089) and would therefore produce a lower charge temperature.

The Merlin in Perspective credits the XX with a +14 combat rating in MS gear and a +16 rating in FS gear, with the takeoff boost being +12.

So really you don't have much of a leg to stand on unless you want to take the view that 100 octane fuel was some kind of collective hallucination by everybody involved...

The most likely explanation for the +9 rating is either a typographical error, or simply the use of a non-combat rating for whatever test you've got that figure from.

This, of course, is a debate about reality. Matters are complicated by the fact that, at least at present, the sim has quite a strange FM which seems to have some important problems, not least of which is erroneous engine indications for all the Spitfires & Hurricanes.

The Spitfire II, when last I tested it, has optimistic +12 performance but questionable full throttle heights and incorrect boost indications, and therefore almost certainly other problems.

The Spitfire I seems to have some kind of hybrid 87 octane performance, but again I'm not really sure what's going on because the boost indications are actually wrong for that as well.

At the moment, I don't think you can really say that the Spitfire is too good or too bad, because the testing that I've done suggests that it's just plane wrong in a sufficiently large number of particulars that it's almost pointless to get into that kind of debate.

In any case, it takes two to tango, and although I'm no expert on the 109, I have absolutely no reason to believe that it's been modelled perfectly either.

I think that the solution is to wait until the sim stabilises a bit, perhaps after the US release, and then set about a rigorous test programme to actually get to the bottom of what's going on.

Of course, even if we get kinematic performance of all the aeroplanes to closely match test data, that's just the start; we've also got to deal with the reliability and cooling difficulties associated with running at high power, because otherwise everybody will be screaming along in war emergency power the whole time, which might well have "balance" implications, in as much as some aeroplanes would probably gain more from this unrealistic performance capability than others...

[Kurfürst]

Originally Posted by Viper2000

Pretty much all Spitfires & Hurricanes were running on 100 octane fuel with +12 psi war emergency power available during the battle. This is extensively documented.

Actually, this was discussed many times already. Sure there's extensive documentation of 100 octane use, which perfectly warrants that we have 100 octane variants of Spitfires & Hurricanes in the sim.

However, the claim that all of them were running on the fuel is quite simply baseless and there's no evidence of this, and it can be considered a bit wishful. On the contrary, there's convincing evidence found in archives detailed fuel use and decisions that the proccess of conversion begun in the spring of 1940 only (preceeded by various trials), and much of the force was still flying on 87 octane and lower engine power during the battle, until toward the end of 1940.