109 e3b against spitfire II

[ICDP]

Originally Posted by VO101_Tom

U cant. SpitII simply better. It was in RL too (The messer can climb higher, but its dont work in game now). E3 -in this configuration- is spanish civil war era (early '39 - LW get the first planes there), Spit II the BOB most advanced RAF type (Aug. '40). Untill LW cant get E-4, E-7, .../N planes, the SpitII banned in most (historical) servers.

Fly with E-3. Difference with E-3/B only the bomb rack, it makes the plane slower.

edit. Ahh, and one more thing The E-3, E-3/B manual Prop pitch is much slower, than should be, big disadvantage anyway with this. We hope, it will be fixed in next patch.

The 109E3 was not a Spanish civil war variant, the 109B was. Also the just like the Mk I Hurricane and Mk I Spitifres, the 109E went through various changes from the early 1939 variant at the start of the war to the versions that saw action in August 1940 over Britain.

More powerfull engines were introduced during the production run which kept the 109E competitive with even the Mk II Spitfire. What the problem is with Cliffs of Dover is that the Spitfire Mk IIa matches the performance of the real +12lbs boost Mk II while the 109E comes nowhere near its historical 1939 figures let alone its 1940 figures.

The Hurricane Mk I Rotol is also getting speeds that match a real +6lbs boost version instead of +12lbs boost, so it is also too slow for a BoB era Hurricane. The Spitfire Mk I, Mk Ia and Hurricane DH are massively underperforming and don't get close to real figures for +6lbs versions let alone +12lbs boost versions. Then we have the Bf110 which matches the performance of a DB601-A variant, the problem is that around 50% of the Bf110s in the battle had DB601-N engines which ran on 100 octane fuel giving them a large performance boost.

What we have are some woefully underperforming fighters that don't match any published figures and seem to use generally made up performance based on nothing in particular.

Spitfire Mk Ia (Rotol)
Spitfire Mk I (DH)
Bf109E3
Fiat G.50
Hurricane Mk I (DH)

We have a total lack of any +12lbs boost Spitfire Mk Is or Hurricane Mk Is that would have been the most common variants at front line squadrons. We also have a total lack of the DB601-N equipped Bf110.

Online servers have a serious issue. Allow the Spitfire Mk IIa, which is the ONLY RAF aircraft with close to real life performance. The problem being that it totally dominates the woefully underperforming 109E and Fiat G.50s. Or ban the Spitfire Mk IIa and watch the domination swing way in fovour for the 109E because the Spitfire and Hurricane Mk Is have performance that is even further from reality than that of the CoD 109E.

A lot of work is required on the majority of FMs and aircraft performance.

[VO101_Tom]

Originally Posted by ICDP

The 109E3 was not a Spanish civil war variant, the 109B was.

Im totally agree, FM necessary to fix, on both sides.

E-3 was not the main fighter, but in spanish civil war, "early in the year (1939) J/88 had recieved 40 new cannon-armed Bf 109 E fighters, and the outdated early marks were passed to Gruppo 5-G-5. On 5 March Mölders's replacement as leader of 3 Staffel." (Osprey Airwar3 - Christopher Shores: Spanish Civil War Air Forces, page 42)"

In this configuration: MG-FF cannon, non automatic cooling system, non automatic Prop pitch system, basic DB601 engine, this is spanish civ war variation. Couple of these aircrafts using in BOB (much less than E-1, E-4, i dont know, why chosen this airplane), but this does not make changes in it, that this machine of what date, and that the LW was much more advanced type under the BOB period.

Im totally understand the virtual RAF pilots situation, 100 octane fuel, +12lbs boost is missing, but LW missing whole series, not just components Untill LW cant get "BOB era" planes, the (historical) mission makers have no other opportunity, have to create Battle of France maps.

[Danelov]

ICDP: A short number of E-1 and maybe some experimental E-3 were used by the Legion Condor in the last stages of the war. The I-16 sometimes was more of a match for the early 109 versions.

[ICDP]

Originally Posted by Danelov

ICDP: A short number of E-1 and maybe some experimental E-3 were used by the Legion Condor in the last stages of the war. The I-16 sometimes was more of a match for the early 109 versions.

I am aware of this, I was responding to VO101_Tom's post on the 109E3 in the Spanish Civil war. Upon re-reading his post I now realise that he meant the current CoD 109E3 is actually performing closer to the very early 109E3 as it was configured in early 1939 (i.e. pre-war). If this was his point then I agree, though the 109E and early Mk I Spitfires and Hurricanes are actually performing slower than they should even for this period.

[VO101_Tom]

Originally Posted by ICDP

I am aware of this, I was responding to VO101_Tom's post on the 109E3 in the Spanish Civil war. Upon re-reading his post I now realise that he meant the current CoD 109E3 is actually performing closer to the very early 109E3 as it was configured in early 1939 (i.e. pre-war). If this was his point then I agree, though the 109E and early Mk I Spitfires and Hurricanes are actually performing slower than they should even for this period.

Yes, it was. Partially.

E-3 enters in service early '39 in Spain. If this would not be enough, ingame performance less than should be (especially in high altitude), bacause of weak modelled engine. Early Spit and Hurri have same problem, but its irrelevant to E-3b vs Spit II question, bacause Spit IIa has no problem like this.

The other thing, we miss what the German engineers developed until one and a half years (at least till aug '40, when Spit II enters service, but its far from end of BOB). Nothing important, only new engines, 100 octane fuel, MG-FF/M gun with mine effect ammo, automatic cooling and PP system. Luthier promised it already, that if not all of them, but we receive some things of these... (We hope, not in Battle of Moscow dvd )

[Ivan Fooker]

I am actually a Spit flyer....
By all those comments i jumped into the Bf109 to ckeck it myself....
FFS...i can understand each pilot "whining" due a Bf109 in CloD.
It feels like the hurricane Mk1 in Il2FB.
Totally unstable in slow flight, turning like a Bf109G10 in Il2FB.
The revi is almost useless in hectic dogfights.

All your comments above are much more detailed for sure.
Nevertheless i can understand, if just a few pilots are fancy flying a Bf109 on servers, coz it feels like XXXX
Hopefully sth gets changed in the next patch in the Bf109FM, as i am not interested to fly a 5:1 (red:blue) on servers.

[VO101_Tom]

Originally Posted by Ivan Fooker

I am actually a Spit flyer....
By all those comments i jumped into the Bf109 to ckeck it myself....
FFS...i can understand each pilot "whining" due a Bf109 in CloD.
It feels like the hurricane Mk1 in Il2FB.
Totally unstable in slow flight, turning like a Bf109G10 in Il2FB.
The revi is almost useless in hectic dogfights.

All your comments above are much more detailed for sure.
Nevertheless i can understand, if just a few pilots are fancy flying a Bf109 on servers, coz it feels likeXXXX
Hopefully sth gets changed in the next patch in the Bf109FM, as i am not interested to fly a 5:1 (red:blue) on servers.

do not be flying low!
if you are flying low, do not turn!
if you turn low, do not turn slowly!
if you turn low, slowly, do not be surprised!

[335th_GRAthos]

Very nice post ICDP,

Just on that sentence

Originally Posted by ICDP

Or ban the Spitfire Mk IIa and watch the domination swing way in favour for the 109E because the Spitfire and Hurricane Mk Is have performance that is even further from reality than that of the CoD 109E.

I think we are very far from the Bf109 having an advantage to their favour.

Most fly "crappy" (I beg for forgiveness for this comment). Bf pilots can not Boom & Zoom which is the only thing the Bf109 was good at, because of three deadly parameters:
#1: No usable propeller pitch: congrats to the guys which made it "historically correct" and screwed up probably 99% percent of Bf pilots to that day. May God (ehem Oleg...) punish them by letting them stick to this Bf flight model for the next five years!
I admit I am subjective here, please read under 99 percent just myself, I stopped flying Bf and flying Spits, so it is a strictly private opinion/ it is mine and I will have to live with it (and I can, by not flying Bf109 any more).

2. Head movement restriction in gunsight mode makes a Bf109 pilot not been able to track the opponent while manouvering verticaly and aim for deflection shots at the same time ("lose sight, lose fight").
I spend seven years of my life flying Bf109 exclusively in IL2FB only to find myself unable to dogfight and shoot in a Bf109 in CoD
May God punish Luthier by having him dogfight non-stop in Bf109 gunsight mode for the next five years...

3. To add insult to injury(point #2): Poor graphics performance and smaller airplane size (maybe it is my subjective opinion) make difficult to recognise and track and airplane with the ground as background. Since the only way for the Bf109 to win a fight is on the vertical, it is much more difficult to track the enemy in CoD than in IL2FB.
My heart is full of condolence when I see these poor SODs in their Bf online, losing sight of me and by the time they have regained situational awareness my Spit is already behind them, and then game over. I can not even feel proud of shooting down Bf109s nowadays


Just my 2cts, I am sorry if I sound bitter, I am honestly not, I am more sarcastic than serious, now that I jumped the fence (and switched to Spit) my problem is solved and I enjoy the game. And hope for the best...with the patch, in three days

~S~

[TomcatViP]

resume of above edit :

Q: Why the 109 is useless against Spit II
A(s):
a/It's historical fact
b/we got crappy FM and the Spit hve to get the 12lbthat & that thing (that I miiss from IL2 )
c/ (added certainly to makes good figure) Oh ..; by the way the Hurri shld also get the 12lb eng

and so on and so on ...

C'mon guys : there was no 12lb Spits - there was AN EMERGENCY SWITCH in SOME of the plane based in england !
The Merlin XX did get 9lb boost and it was an after BoB engine
The FM of the Spits is simply surrealistic even for the MkI
This is not the number (perf achieved ) it's in the way it can turn and climb (E grabber) - TAKE TIME to fly in ALL the planes we hve for now: IT'S SO OBVIOUS !

So pls be constructive not selfish and don't touch the superb FM we hve for now for both the Hurri and the 109 to fit your own expectation.

Those men were brave. There were not in anyway counting on any X-men to fight for their freedom.

[jg27_mc]

Originally Posted by TomcatViP

resume of above edit :

Q: Why the 109 is useless against Spit II
A(s):
a/It's historical fact
b/we got crappy FM and the Spit hve to get the 12lbthat & that thing (that I miiss from IL2 )
c/ (added certainly to makes good figure) Oh ..; by the way the Hurri shld also get the 12lb eng

and so on and so on ...

C'mon guys : there was no 12lb Spits - there was AN EMERGENCY SWITCH in SOME of the plane based in england !
The Merlin XX did get 9lb boost and it was an after BoB engine
The FM of the Spits is simply surrealistic even for the MkI
This is not the number (perf achieved ) it's in the way it can turn and climb (E grabber) - TAKE TIME to fly in ALL the planes we hve for now: IT'S SO OBVIOUS !

So pls be constructive not selfish and don't touch the superb FM we hve for now for both the Hurri and the 109 to fit your own expectation.

Those men were brave. There were not in anyway counting on any X-men to fight for their freedom.

Are you crazy? Did you count how many years (in old IL-2) till the Spits FM was adjusted? It had to be an external team (TD) to do it, cause MG, over the years, were only interested in porking 109's.

Beware TomcatVIP, what your saying is going to be taboo even in a late stage of development of this simulation...