BF109 - Can't we just have the gunsight in the middle?

[Lixma]

Originally Posted by carguy_

If what Lixma said is right, then to get a view of the full revi gunsight, a pilot must:
1. SITTING STRAIGHT - lean closer to the revi to get the "ghost" effect.

No. (and if that's what you think i've said i'm beginning to get worried about my communication skills...)

The pilot sits looking forward, no leaning forward, sideways or craning his neck. The Revi is adjusted to shine a full reticle image into his right eye. That's the whole point of it being offset.

Originally Posted by carguy

2. SITTING A BIT TO THE RIGHT - seeing the full glowing crosshair without having to lean closer to it.

Again, there's no need to sit a bit to the right (unless the Revi was set-up for someone else). Please remember the view point we see in CoD is not what a two-eyed human would see.

Please have a scan through the thread again, especially the posts/pictures dealing with what a real 109 pilot would see through his left and right eye compared with the Cyclops depicted in CoD.

[Lixma]

Originally Posted by heloguy

The gunsight itself, not just the glass, has no provisions for adjustment either horizontally, or vertically according to any pictures, or museum pieces I've seen.

The Revi unit was bolted solidly to the airframe. And in some 109 cockpit pictures you'll actually see extra supporting bars in an attempt to keep the unit as steady as possible.

However the reflector's line of sight was adjustable for elevation +/-2.5 degrees horizontally, and +/-3 degrees vertically. How this was done I do not know.

This adjustment was to allow the reticle to be reflected into the eye.....this adjustment didn't actually alter the reticle's position relative to the weapons. It didn't alter the zeroing.

There was also the ability to adjust the aircraft's seat-height. Much quicker and much less fuss. The handle is visible in CoD to the left just by the trim/flaps wheel. Doesn't work, though.

EDIT. I just stumbled across this. There was an additional adjustment available when mounting the sight. Assuming this replica is accurate the Revi unit could be moved closer or farther away from the pilot. This would alter the apparent size of the reticle relative to the edge of the reflector glass.

Which makes sense. The Revi was used on all kinds of different aircraft so the mounting brackets would have to offer some kind of telescopic adjustment for finer tuning.

http://cgi.ebay.com/WW2-German-Gunsi...-/230530262205

[Lixma]

This is worth posting.

It's a schematic of the FW-190. Look carefully.....



Make a note of....

a) the center-line.

b) the sight-line.

c) the position of the reticle

d) the horizontal separation between centre-line and sight-line - 40mm.

Now grab a tape measure, find a mirror and measure the distance from the centre of your nose to the middle of your right pupil.....

Mine is 37mm.

The offset Revi gunsight is installed to sit directly in the right eye's line of sight.

No leaning required.

Here's a link to the full image....I'd post it here but it's a bit big....3mb.

http://www.mediafire.com/imageview.p...n77up7&thumb=4

Lixma, as you have the best skills to explain all this and also all the information, including the things you just posted about the revi adjustments and the FW190 thing: could you assemble all this into one fluid text/document and provide this to luthier?

Perhaps open a new thread in the FM section with an appropriate title (just an illustration for what I mean - you surely will find a better one than me: "Pilot with two eyes and revi sights: How it should be") and put all the explanations and pictures in it. And send the link to luthier.

[Lixma]

I probably will at some point....although the thought of going through all this again is a little daunting.

In the meantime i'll just repost the FW-190 thing for the new page, so it will get seen. This picture does a phenomenal job of illustrating the issue at hand. I only wish I had found it 25 pages ago.....sigh.

Originally Posted by Lixma

This is worth posting.

It's a schematic of the FW-190. Look carefully.....



Make a note of....

a) the center-line.

b) the sight-line.

c) the position of the reticle

d) the horizontal separation between centre-line and sight-line - 40mm.

Now grab a tape measure, find a mirror and measure the distance from the centre of your nose to the middle of your right pupil.....

Mine is 37mm.

The offset Revi gunsight is installed to sit directly in the right eye's line of sight.

No leaning required.

Here's a link to the full image....I'd post it here but it's a bit big....3mb.

http://www.mediafire.com/imageview.p...n77up7&thumb=4

[heloguy]

I guess if it ever came to fruition, it would be a big help to those that don't use Track IR, as their head would be held (aside from the headshake affect) directly in the middle. If you lean at all to the left, though, it should not be very far before the image would disappear. The effect could also be used on the Spitfire and Hurricane, if someone is leaning to the left or right of their sights.

The mount you showed does seem to have a telescoping piece, but I wonder exactly what it would be for. It's certainly not made for making fine adjustments and then being fixed in place. It looks like it only adjusts from one extreme to another.

[Lixma]

Originally Posted by heloguy

If you lean at all to the left, though, it should not be very far before the image would disappear.

Yeah, the reticle should still appear/disappear due to G-forces on the pilot during manoeuvring.

Originally Posted by heloguy

The mount you showed does seem to have a telescoping piece, but I wonder exactly what it would be for. It's certainly not made for making fine adjustments and then being fixed in place. It looks like it only adjusts from one extreme to another.

That sounds reasonable. I'd never actually seen one before I found those pictures so I'm not certain how it was used. On the other hand the ability to adjust, even crudely, the range of the gunsight from the pilots' eyes would be very useful.

[Blackdog_kt]

Sorry to bump this but i found a workaround. I don't know if it has been mentioned (i didn't read the entire thread), so apologies if it has been already mentioned.

For starters and obviously enough, if you're using a head tracking device you can set your center position to be offset and get rid of this issue: just move you head left, press your centering key and when you move back into your usual center position your view will be shifted to the right, giving you a nice view of the gunsight.


However. even if you don't have a head tracking device there is a solution to this. Turn off the mouse cursor to get the mouse to work as a camera controller (default key for this is F10), keep the right mouse button pressed and move the mouse around: you will see that you can move the camera forward/backward/left/right.

Alternatively, you can keep the mouse cursor on and follow the same routine but with the middle mouse button also pressed: middle mouse button acts as a temporary "over-ride" that disables the mouse cursor and enables camera control for as long as it's pressed, so that you don't have to keep switching between clickable cockpit and camera control all the time.

This way you can set your default viewpoint to be aligned with the gunsight. I think that pressing the "center view" key (default is keypad 5) will not reset your view changes as it only applies to the pitch/roll/yaw axis of head movement (it even over-rides freetrack in that respect, if i move my view to the right it stays there until i manually move it back with the mouse, i don't know how it works with trackIR though).

This way you can fly with the 109 gunsight centered no matter if you use a head tracker or not, it's like setting up your viewpoint to have a permanent lean to the right

[Lixma]

Can't be arsed going through it all again so i'll just repeat myself the easy way....

Originally Posted by Lixma

This is worth posting.

It's a schematic of the FW-190. Look carefully.....



Make a note of....

a) the center-line.

b) the sight-line.

c) the position of the reticle

d) the horizontal separation between centre-line and sight-line - 40mm.

Now grab a tape measure, find a mirror and measure the distance from the centre of your nose to the middle of your right pupil.....

Mine is 37mm.

The offset Revi gunsight is installed to sit directly in the right eye's line of sight.

No leaning required.

Here's a link to the full image....I'd post it here but it's a bit big....3mb.

http://www.mediafire.com/imageview.p...n77up7&thumb=4

[flyingblind]

Don't forget as well that to see things more as a 109 pilot would see them you need to be in 30deg FOV so that the sight appears at the correct size and not the postage stamp size seen in 70deg or 90deg FOV. But I doubt anyone flys using 30deg FOV even those claiming they only want complete realism. When the chips are down everyone will compromise.