BF109 - Can't we just have the gunsight in the middle?

[Lixma]

Originally Posted by klem

Yes, that means the aiming point is no longer in the centre of the screen/windshield but it wasn't, was it?

No. Although the physical gun-sight was mounted offset to the right it does not mean that in real life or in CoD the pilot should see an offset reticle.

Try this....

Grab a pen and look straight ahead.

Close your left eye.

Hold the pen in front of your right eye in the centre of your vision as best you can.

Now open your left eye.

With both eyes open will see a 'ghostly' pen directly in front of you. So despite the pen being located directly in front of only the right eye, your brain is combining both eyes' images into one.

Just as the Revi is physically offset to the right, so is your pen. But the brain nevertheless combines the seperate images into one coherent whole and so you get a 'ghostly' looking pen directly in the center of your vision. The same principle is at work with the Revi.

Additionally, with both eyes open you will also notice another 'ghostly' pen a bit further out to the right. This is your left eye's peripheral vision picking this up. Does this mean we should see two 'ghostly' reticles? No, because in the 109, looking straight ahead the left eye would not be able to see the reticle and so only one image of the reticle would appear before the pilot.

[klem]

Originally Posted by Lixma

No. Although the physical gun-sight was mounted offset to the right it does not mean that in real life or in CoD the pilot should see an offset reticle.

Try this....

Grab a pen and look straight ahead.

Close your left eye.

Hold the pen in front of your right eye in the centre of your vision as best you can.

Now open your left eye.

With both eyes open will see a 'ghostly' pen directly in front of you. So despite the pen being located directly in front of only the right eye, your brain is combining both eyes' images into one.

Just as the Revi is physically offset to the right, so is your pen. But the brain nevertheless combines the seperate images into one coherent whole and so you get a 'ghostly' looking pen directly in the center of your vision. The same principle is at work with the Revi.

Additionally, with both eyes open you will also notice another 'ghostly' pen a bit further out to the right. This is your left eye's peripheral vision picking this up. Does this mean we should see two 'ghostly' reticles? No, because in the 109, looking straight ahead the left eye would not be able to see the reticle and so only one image of the reticle would appear before the pilot.

Hmmm.... I think we may be saying the same thing - almost.

With my left eye closed and the pen in the centre of my right eye vision and then I open my left eye, I don't see a ghostly image directly in front of me, I see the image of the pen in front of my right eye, not centred, and a ghostly pen to the right of that one which is seen by my left eye due to the angle across to it. I think we agree on the right eye image, even if we disagree about a centred ghostly image. Also with the Revis sight I wouldn't see the reticle with my left eye because as you say, it isn't in my left eye's field of vision so all I would see is the image directly in front of my right eye. Again I think we agree. So we could either have the reticle visible and offset or visible and centred although the latter wouldn't represent what is really happening. But we shouldn't have to move our head.

When people say they want realism, what do they mean? The fact that the sight is offset so it must physically look like that? The presumption that the pilot must therefore have had to lean over to use it? Or the fact that it was offset to be directly in front of our right eye with optics to ensure that we only see the reticle with our right eye, without moving our head, and either represent that with a centred view (a poor solution) or a visibly offset glass AND reticle with which to aim without moving the head, because I don't believe fighter pilots would be called upon to lean over to see the reticle. The offset was intended to help them not hinder them.

[Lixma]

Originally Posted by klem

With my left eye closed and the pen in the centre of my right eye vision and then I open my left eye, I don't see a ghostly image directly in front of me, I see the image of the pen in front of my right eye, not centred,

Then you are doing something wrong. You're supposed to be looking straight ahead, not at the pen, but through the pen. Then you'll see the effect.

This might help.....

Pick a spot on the monitor screen as near the centre of the screen as you can (a word, a smiley, a dead fly..etc)....this is your 'target'. Sit comfortably and look straight at this point with both eyes - as normal.

Now, close your left eye and hold the pen about 20cm away from your right eye so it covers your particular target. Do not focus on the pen if possible, keep looking straight ahead as if you were able to see your 'target'.

Now open your left eye and you should see your target and a ghostly pen super-imposed on top of it. Both target and pen appear right in the middle of your field of vision despite the pen, in reality being offset to the right. Such is the principle of the Revi.

Originally Posted by klem

...because I don't believe fighter pilots would be called upon to lean over to see the reticle. The offset was intended to help them not hinder them.

If someone can think of a single advantage to requiring a pilot, strapped tightly into a high performance fighter aircraft to start leaning over just to be able to see his gunsight, I have yet to hear it.

[JG52Krupi]

Originally Posted by Lixma

Then you are doing something wrong. You're supposed to be looking straight ahead, not at the pen, but through the pen. Then you'll see the effect.

This might help.....

Pick a spot on the monitor screen as near the centre of the screen as you can (a word, a smiley, a dead fly..etc)....this is your 'target'. Sit comfortably and look straight at this point with both eyes - as normal.

Now, close your left eye and hold the pen about 20cm away from your right eye so it covers your particular target. Do not focus on the pen if possible, keep looking straight ahead as if you were able to see your 'target'.

Now open your left eye and you should see your target and a ghostly pen super-imposed on top of it. Both target and pen appear right in the middle of your field of vision despite the pen, in reality being offset to the right. Such is the principle of the Revi.


If someone can think of a single advantage to requiring a pilot, strapped tightly into a high performance fighter aircraft to start leaning over just to be able to see his gunsight, I have yet to hear it.

I wish i could see this affect in real life as the major problem i have with it is that the target sight would be very blurred and quite annoying to aim through and your eyes would constantly be adjusting to both the target and the gunsight target.

[Lixma]

Originally Posted by JG52Krupi

I wish i could see this affect in real life as the major problem i have with it is that the target sight would be very blurred and quite annoying to aim through as your eyes would constantly be adjusting to both the target and the gunsight target.

No, because the reticle (not just the Revi's but all* reflex sights) is focussed at infinity. This means that regardless of whether your visual target is located 10m, 100m, or 1000m away the reticle will remain sharp and in focus for you.

To be sure, some people find a reflex sight unnatural at first. They might try to close an eye, squint or as you mentioned find themselves trying to focus one eye upon the reticle and one eye on the target (migraineville); but it doesn't take long to get used to it.

* I think all.

EDIT: DayGlow beat me to it.....shakes fist....

[JG52Krupi]

Originally Posted by DayGlow

The sight is focused to infinity so it stays in focus overlaid on your target.

Originally Posted by Lixma

No, because the reticle (not just the Revi's but all* reflex sights) is focussed at infinity. This means that regardless of whether your visual target is located 10m, 100m, or 1000m away the reticle will remain sharp and in focus for you.

To be sure, some people find a reflex sight unnatural at first. They might try to close an eye, squint or as you mentioned find themselves trying to focus one eye upon the reticle and one eye on the target (migraineville); but it doesn't take long to get used to it.

* I think all.

EDIT: DayGlow beat me to it.....shakes fist....

Ah okay, thanks for the information I wasn't aware of this.

[heloguy]

The gunsight itself, not just the glass, has no provisions for adjustment either horizontally, or vertically according to any pictures, or museum pieces I've seen.

With that in mind, it should be noted that a reflector sight, or any gunsight for that matter, is adjusted to the actual bore of the weapon, not the user, so it's impossible that the sight be adjusted for each person as they are going to use it. I am in awe of those that say they must adjust their weapon's sight after it's already been zeroed. It only makes sense that someone would have to move their head in order to view the entire sight where it is reflected. The game has this particular instance correct. This ghostly image of the other half of the sight would only occur in a small portion of the range of someone's total range of motion in a cockpit. I don't disagree that it's possible, but I disagree with the overreaction that its omittance is debilitating. I would settle for Track IR support that was as stable, and intuitive as that that's included with the 6DOF mod for IL2.

[klem]

Originally Posted by Lixma

Then you are doing something wrong. You're supposed to be looking straight ahead, not at the pen, but through the pen. Then you'll see the effect.

This might help.....

Pick a spot on the monitor screen as near the centre of the screen as you can (a word, a smiley, a dead fly..etc)....this is your 'target'. Sit comfortably and look straight at this point with both eyes - as normal.

Now, close your left eye and hold the pen about 20cm away from your right eye so it covers your particular target. Do not focus on the pen if possible, keep looking straight ahead as if you were able to see your 'target'.

Now open your left eye and you should see your target and a ghostly pen super-imposed on top of it. Both target and pen appear right in the middle of your field of vision despite the pen, in reality being offset to the right. Such is the principle of the Revi.


If someone can think of a single advantage to requiring a pilot, strapped tightly into a high performance fighter aircraft to start leaning over just to be able to see his gunsight, I have yet to hear it.

OK I get that Lixma. I still think the reticle should be visible on the gunsight in 'Normal' view, thats what the pilot would have seen (with his right eye of course).

[fenrirswrath]

Can someone explain how to center the gunsight without trackir and without the zoom of loosen shoulder straps. I've tried holding down the middle and right MB and moving to the right, but that does nothing. I don't see any option in views or camera to adjust it.