droids are NOT overpowered:-)

[Zechnophobe]

Originally Posted by impy

I have not tried it personally, just following the ckdamascus list above about units affected by steam armor. Why shouldn't it be good? The otherwise terrible drawback = -1 speed can be easily offset by belt of winner or adrenaline skill. Besides vampires in their bat form have speed of 5, so even reduction to 4 i find acceptable.

'easily offset by belt of the winner'? That's... a composite end game item you likely will never see, or only after defeating Scrounger! Also, it is still -1 movement compared to it!

Also 30% to the stats of a level 4 unit is rarely all that much. I don't recall the beefiest level 4, but I think it might be around 30 attack defense? Probably less. And that's only +9 attack and Defense. That's MAX. I can find decent items for that slot that give good bonus', that don't decrease my speed by one, and effect my dragons or cyclopi or whatever.

[Fatt_Shade]

Originally Posted by Zechnophobe

Also 30% to the stats of a level 4 unit is rarely all that much. I don't recall the beefiest level 4, but I think it might be around 30 attack defense? Probably less. And that's only +9 attack and Defense. That's MAX. I can find decent items for that slot that give good bonus', that don't decrease my speed by one, and effect my dragons or cyclop or whatever.

30% att/def for 4th lvl units isn`t that much ??? Pls tell me your joking. All 4th lvl`s have 25+basic att/def so this armor give them +9 for BOTH att/def!!! +18 stats isn`t enough ( for Paladin is +10/+12 att/def) ? Name 1 other item that gives so much attributes.
There are so few high bonus items Dead skull +5 int/att, Mithril shield +8 def, Axe of ice III lvl +7def and that tooth +7 att you get from K`tahu. Thats it, no more so strong items. Plus this is ARMOR, there are no other items that fit in that slot witch give better stats.
If you use 5th lvl units, obviously this armor is bad choice but for other unit lineups it`s great item. All humans, dwarfs (except droids), undead(except ghosts), many elfs, and some neutrals. So there are alott of builds that would benefit from this item. In my opinion only other Armor/Dress that can compare to Steam are : Dragon cloak (for Mages), Steel leaf (for 3-4 lvl army - Orc team, 100% crit archer lineups, or mass summon army), Dress of mages and last but not least Leather dress
And since there are no Armor/Dress that give -% leadership for some units (Inquisitor blade, Orc ear . . . ) in late game this armor it great choice. Of if you play dragon army with +3 morale, or Shrek team go for some other item, but for any other army consisted of 3-4 lvl units Steam armor is better then most of others.

I just now figured out imba fact for Mage+Elenhel combo : you can equip 3 sets. Undead set (2 artifacts+gloves in hero), Darkness set (helm+artifact in hero) , Vampire set(weapon hero, artifact companion). I`m playing it now and wondering should reload since lvl 12, and pick Moro dark instead Elenhell, just ot get that stupid Shard of darkness and exploit this retarded combo. Black knights and Ancient vampires are ridiculously strong. It gives some impression that developers intended to overpower this class

[impy]

Originally Posted by Zechnophobe

'easily offset by belt of the winner'? That's... a composite end game item you likely will never see, or only after defeating Scrounger! Also, it is still -1 movement compared to it!

Also 30% to the stats of a level 4 unit is rarely all that much. I don't recall the beefiest level 4, but I think it might be around 30 attack defense? Probably less. And that's only +9 attack and Defense. That's MAX. I can find decent items for that slot that give good bonus', that don't decrease my speed by one, and effect my dragons or cyclopi or whatever.

Zechnophobe, this thread started as a discussion about pretty much single unit challenge - droids, black knights, vampires..That's how my answer should have been understood, i was not talking about standard gameplay & line-up. Besides, I did not say steam armor was the best, but it is certainly amongst the best. Debate which armor is the best in standard gameplay heavily depends on opposition. When fighting Gremlion upgraded magician cowl is probably the best. For regular fights I always liked slippery cuirass etc.

On the lighter note, I started this laid back playthrough aiming for high level intellect mage, no kiting, no scanner.
So far in Verona, and I cannot believe my luck
Debir - novice dress
Scarlet - skull of pain
Bolo - novice staff
Rusty - novice dress 2, battlemage helmet, hand of necropolis
Verona - novice staff 2, usurer's ring, ring of mind, ancient amulet, 2 x bronze ring.
That's extra 38 intellect so far guaranteed.
find savegame at level 1 attached, if anyone is looking for playing int. oriented mage

[Fatt_Shade]

As you said solo unit challenge, steam armor can be good item for many fights.
I wonder how come so far no1 mentioned solo Paladin stack. Good tank, easy to resurrect, and kicks ass against undead and demons. They have crappy initiative and speed, but easily fixed with Adrenaline skill, and if you manage to get Inquisitor`s blade they would go to 176 leadership/unit. But this challenge would be best for Paladin hero and his +40% physical dmg medal.
Last game i played with Warrior and found 2 Battle axe`s, and Drill which got my paladins to 27-33 basic dmg, and with Hell breath spell +52% fire dmg (3rd lvl give 40% but with Firestorm necklace it get`s to 52%), which finally was 40-50 physical/fire dmg on 4th lvl unit . For Paladin hero this could go up to 45-56 ,for only 220 leadership Better then some 5th lvl units !
So far only units that can compare with him are Royal thorn (f...ing hard to keep alive) with Crown of blackthorn 40-60 basic dmg (61-91 with Hell breath for 380 leadership/unit), and ofc his Majesty and Royal highness overpowered Black knight 20-27 basic (43-64 with Rising fury and Hell breath for only 120 leadership/unit 3 times less then those unit above).

I might try this next play through. Paladin hero, Paladin unit Companion Gaudi/Agraves (not sure which is better). Question is next : to use Inquisitor blade for bigger army (-20% leadership cost=25% more units), or Drill/Battle axe for nice dmg (would be 30-37 basic dmg this way) but no Att bonus (untill Frenzy kicks in after couple of turns in fight). It`s obvious to go for Blade, but high dmg Paladin is just hilarious to look

I`we read on some other treads that some ppl go solo Bone dragon. I get it easy to resurrect with Evlin, and pretty low leadership for 5th lvl. But i dont get it how they kill plants/undead/droids ??? Very high poison resistance=Bone dragons have hard time killing any1

As for your save file, thx might try it. I saw somewhere on forum that 70+ int mages make 12-20k dmg with Black hole per turn, damn

[ckdamascus]

Originally Posted by Fatt_Shade

As you said solo unit chalange, steam armor can be good item for many fights.
I wonder how come so far no1 mentioned solo Paladin stack. Good tank, easy to resurrect, and kicks ass against undead and demons. They have crappy initiative and speed, but easily fixed with Adrenaline skill, and if you manage to get Inquisitor`s blade they would go to 176 leadership/unit. But this challenge would be best for Paladin hero and his +40% physical dmg medal.
Last game i played with Warrior and found 2 Battle axe`s, and Drill which got my paladins to 27-33 basic dmg, and with Hell breath spell +52% fire dmg (3rd lvl give 40% but with Firestorm necklace it get`s to 52%), which finally was 40-50 physical/fire dmg on 4th lvl unit . For Paladin hero this could go up to 45-56 ,for only 220 leadership Better then some 5th lvl units !
So far only units that can compare with him are Royal thorn (f...ing hard to keep alive) with Crown of blackthorn 40-60 basic dmg (61-91 with Hell breath for 380 leadership/unit), and ofc his Majesty and Royal highness overpowered Black knight 20-27 basic (43-64 with Rising fury and Hell breath for only 120 leadership/unit 3 times less then those unit above).

I might try this next playthrough. Paladin hero, Paladin unit Companion Gaudi/Agraves (not sure witch is better). Question is next : to use Inquisitor blade for bigger army (-20% leadership cost=25% more units), or Drill/Battle axe for nice dmg (would be 30-37 basic dmg this way) but no Att bonus (untill Frenzy kicks in after couple of turns in fight). It`s obvious to go for Blade, but high dmg Paladin is just hilarious to look

I`we read on some other treads that some ppl go solo Bone dragon. I get it easy to resurrect with Evlin, and pretty low leadership for 5th lvl. But i dont get it how they kill plants/undead/droids ??? Very high poison resistance=Bone dragons have hard time killing any1

As for your save file, thx might try it. I saw somewhere on forum that 70+ int mages make 12-20k dmg with Black hole per turn, damn

Curse both of you. I lost a lot of my life doing calculations and such... I must... resist.

Oh man, I don't want to get sucked into all of this again. I think when I did do the math for Super Paladin build, they weren't TOO bad but the problem was ... paladins are generally slow. I guess adrenaline can fix this...

Fairly certain that in the end, I wasn't that terribly impressed with the final damage. It was pretty darn high, but compared to the Shrek team, you don't get the same longevity and you need some time frenzying it up. Compared to archer teams, you waste quite a few rounds either running, or casting haste, etc. You can't start off doing real damage without blowing a spell away.

You could mix it up a little, so it isn't pure solo units. Loreangelicus was a big fan of droid/bone/blackknight sort of armies. However, mixing paladins runs into the same problem: speed. You pour all your resources into making paladins the ultimate killing machine, but you still need to waste rounds in allowing the to do damage.

Maybe I'm wrong though (since paladins are inherently highly resistant to a lot of damage). Just that the power of the Shrek team was the ability to drain at least one guy's attack round.

Also, paladins probably work best in DUAL stacks so they can second wind each other. They really were made to be a complementary unit.

Finally, despite the Paladin classes awesome +40% damage boost, the warrior MIGHT still end up being a better. I think when I did the math, the Paladin class with paladins does do more damage, but not by much. Note, this is before Crossworlds.

Warrior have the extra weapon slot AND they have counter-attack from Crossworlds which most likely works with paladins. This is what made the Shrek team shine, and I am sure it would make a paladin team shine too.

Being able to deal up to 4X more damage per round is tremendous and overcomes the Paladin damage class advantage by far.

I'd strongly consider to look into using the Warrior instead.

This also makes me come to the sad conclusion that the Paladin class really has less utility (besides top score runs, easy voice of the dragon, solo stack - resurrection runs) and probably a few other weird cases.

[Fatt_Shade]

I just now figured out were both wrong here `ckdamascus`
This tread goes for solo unit run 14 fight end game. So no special class skills. On other hand old skills : Bloodlust would be useless in this run, but Paladins Resurrection will give 30% more on spell and units ability (every paladin with Prayer resurrect 31HP).
But just for sake or conversation lest think this through. We mixed bonuses from Warrior and Paladin.
+3Att is for killling Lizard units, Paladin gets +3def for undead from medal, neither is available for this run. Warrior gets +15 Rage and Paly +40% dmg is reachable easy.
Again Warrior sucks, bonus rage useless comparing bonus dmg.
Warrior have counterstrike which is great for any humanoid except undead. Why i have no f...ing idea, since it works for lake/forest fairy for Gods sake. And steam armor give bonuses for almost all undead so they are obviously humanoids. Then why not counterstrike for vampire/blackies ??? But Paladin have also special skill, lets not forget Holy armor Counterstrike wont work against Bosses, but Holy armor will. So i`ll stay with solo Paladin hero/unit idea (just on paper) i`ll leave impy to try if he want Because he clearly have knack for this business.

[Fatt_Shade]

Originally Posted by impy

On the lighter note, I started this laid back playthrough aiming for high level intellect mage, no kiting, no scanner.
So far in Verona, and I cannot believe my luck
Debir - novice dress
Scarlet - skull of pain
Bolo - novice staff
Rusty - novice dress 2, battlemage helmet, hand of necropolis
Verona - novice staff 2, usurer's ring, ring of mind, ancient amulet, 2 x bronze ring.
That's extra 38 intellect so far guaranteed.
find savegame at level 1 attached, if anyone is looking for playing int. oriented mage

Nice int items, and thx for save file but why o why pink pet dragon and skipped training ground ?
For high int mage, green dragon would be better, and those fights can get you to firemage medal faster and some chests could get something even better, i have once found mithrill shield in second chest in battle. And free +1 att/def items are better then no item at all until get/find some better ones. Also you get free lvl after training and runes to get you started.
Dont get me wrong, thx for save and sharing good luck with int mage build (i personally have never seen 2 novice dresses in game, 2 princess yes but never novices). But you made some weird choices on start my man

[impy]

sorry man, my mistake. I just picked one of saves at level1 without checking it. I remember, since I did not want to spoil the fun and use scanner, that I just went through initial islands to see if there is trap scroll before I started game properly. I am aware of the benefits of the training

i stand by decision of picking the +5mana dragon. To start with, let's agree that bonuses provided by any pet dragon are hardly significant. When picking a pet dragon, you can either increase your strengths (mage = int & mana), improve your weaknesses (mage = rage, def, att) or go for specific build requirements ( +crit for high crit shooters army, +init to dragons for dragons army.) If you look at my current game screenshoot, you can see that with a bit of calculations I can get to 77int, possibly more, so knowing this, +1int from pet dragon does not make much difference. However, problem with mage after casting 3-4 of 40+mana spells is lack of mana. Since "value" of mana for mage is much higher than for any other character, meaning damage he can do per 1 mana, I went for +mana. Also, +5mana helps at the beginning when you try to utilize first ten rounds to work on medals..

[Fatt_Shade]

Apology not excepted. Now try some other games until you get same items as here, and this time do training, and pick green dragon cub. Just joking
That +1 int can make huge difference trust me. I managed to make 83 int mage last time, with 2 gloves of destroyer and that 1 int would give me +20% on spells, but there was no chance to get it anywhere in all game Black hole was somewhere 12-20K dmg, so i think with that +1 int can go up to 13-21K.
I just tryed new game to see training bonus and got normal +1 att/def items as every time but got 1 more from first battle - chieftains belt for +1 def/+150 leadership. What a luck, and then i go finish second battle, all in all i got 6 chests, 7 fire arrow for medals, +1att/+2def/+150 leadership which for mage is imba on 2 lvl. Then i go check first lvl in Tower of eventus and find there Fear and Trap spells
So training can be boring and called noob at start of every game but can give some sweet bonuses
I never use KBscaner and since impossible game for mage can be pretty tough, i use at least training and get couple of easy steps to get me started.

On my/ckdamascus conversation about Paladin hero/solo paladin unit 14 battles game any thoughts ?

[impy]

yes, 20% bonus to spell damage looks good, obviously you mean a breakpoint reached at multiply of 7 of intellect. Still it is 20% to base damage,not overall damage. It is about personal feeling I guess, i am not looking for absolute divine damage with no mana after few rounds, but more balanced mana/int ratio. I happily swap archmage staff for elkonium or get portrait of queen of ice instead of +5int ring. It depends on situation on battlefield; sometimes you need to dish out max damage quickly, sometimes wear down the enemy with demon portals, flame arrows, fear etc, which cost lots of mana over time. If you want really nerve wracking experience try my earlier challenge - how far can you get in the game with single black dragon. I played it in Armored Princess days and killed everything in the game except Baal & Ktahu. Speaking of witch, I might try it myself, since now the game has been made harder by overpowered orcs. There is a cap on astral res - chaos helm + ghost armor + crystal ball =75%. Hmm, if you get very lucky you might get 2 chaos crowns in the game (is it possible?) for extra 10% via gloves of destroyer.

paladins. It is difficult to pass a definite judgment. You see, droids have crappy defence + magic res, but infinite repair which overcomes everything when played properly. Eviln brings back insane numbers of black knights as long as you have mana management organized, but with paladins.. I am worried about their high leadership req. and resurrection skill being to weak, and typical warrior char. mana problems...