Head Tracking with Cliffs of Dover

[Novotny]

I bought a ford escort in 1987. Why can't I have their latest release for free?

And Stipe - they only protected their code, not the concept.

Aren't you guys starting to get it?

[vicinity]

Originally Posted by Novotny

I bought a ford escort in 1987. Why can't I have their latest release for free?

No, and I wouldn't expect them to provide me a new trackir 5 if I had one of the old ones either, I would however appreciate them more as a customer if they continued to support their product. It's the same with games, if a company continues to support it and remove bugs etc. their customers will be more happy. I would buy a trackir tomorrow if I could afford it but I wouldn't be happy if they decided to stop supporting the product to encourage sales of their latest one.

Note: I am just saying why some people might not be happy about it, and not what they as a company should/shouldn't do.

[Wolf_Rider]

Originally Posted by vicinity

No, and I wouldn't expect them to provide me a new trackir 5 if I had one of the old ones either, I would however appreciate them more as a customer if they continued to support their product. It's the same with games, if a company continues to support it and remove bugs etc. their customers will be more happy. I would buy a trackir tomorrow if I could afford it but I wouldn't be happy if they decided to stop supporting the product to encourage sales of their latest one.

Note: I am just saying why some people might not be happy about it, and not what they as a company should/shouldn't do.

I think we understand the sentiment Vicinity but you've got to keep in mind that with progress and further deveopment comes upset for some. Me? I like the idea of floppies but I can adapt and move on. It won't be long before IDE interface and platter HD's are relegated to the dustbin of history either.

{I don't drink coca cola, or similar, as it is just cr@p)


*Edit

Originally Posted by MadBlaster

Novotny, NP has every right to encrypt their code. You don't understand the issue. This is about NP creating a barrier to a market via their NDA with 1C to maintain an artificial monopoly.

Finally, you agree NP are allowed to encrypt their code - yeehar. It needs to be understood though there is no monopoly though... proven by Mouse Look (aka Freelook).

[MadBlaster]

Originally Posted by Wolf_Rider

Finally, you agree NP are allowed to encrypt their code - yeehar. It needs to be understood though there is no monopoly though... proven by Mouse Look (aka Freelook).

1)Where did I ever say that I did not believe that NP can't encrypt their code? This is an assumption you made. But I don't care. Assume what you want W-R.

2)Mouse Look is not an equivalent substitute to Freetrack. Do you even play Il-2 anymore? Again, the Stuka example. The mouse needs to be independent of the 6DoF. Currently in existing game you use the 6DoF axis to look around with your head. The mouse moves the gun with the mouse axis'. You are suggesting using the mouse axis for the head with Mouse Look. Well then what. Do I just stare at the gun? How do I aim and shoot? Sure, I can fire with the left mouse button. But how do I aim? It won't work. But Freetrack works. I already know that. I would like to use it with CoD.

AFAIK, copyright applies to software, patent applies to hardware.

[Wolf_Rider]

Originally Posted by MadBlaster

2)Mouse Look is not an equivalent substitute to Freetrack.

Mouse look is an alternative to naturalpoint

Originally Posted by MadBlaster

Again, the Stuka example. The mouse needs to be independent of the 6DoF. Currently in existing game you use the 6DoF axis to look around with your head. The mouse moves the gun with the mouse axis'. You are suggesting using the mouse axis for the head with Mouse Look.

there is a little thing called DEVELOPING, that could well assist you in the situation you want there. Mouse Look (aka Freelook) is an alternative, the method of hooking into it to suit the needs to be arrived at... this has been mentioned before.

Originally Posted by MadBlaster

Well then what. Do I just stare at the gun? How do I aim and shoot? Sure, I can fire with the left mouse button. But how do I aim? It won't work.

I seem to remeber that was the case anyway in the prehacked version of il2 (I could be wrong but that is what I seem to remember, even with TIR proper). I haven't run il2 since it was hacked

Originally Posted by MadBlaster

But Freetrack works. I already know that. I would like to use it with CoD.

no body is saying FT shouldn't be used in a clean form... remove the need for NP files and your more than likely set.

Originally Posted by MadBlaster

AFAIK, copyright applies to software, patent applies to hardware.

basically correct and Trade Marks are for trade names and logo's, etc.

[MadBlaster]

Originally Posted by wolf_rider

mouse look is an alternative to naturalpoint

Is it an equivalent alternative or just a lesser alternative? Will mouse look do what i need it to do like freetrack? Prove it. Knock yourself out.


There is a little thing called developing, that could well assist you in the situation you want there. Mouse look (aka freelook) is an alternative, the method of hooking into it to suit the needs to be arrived at... This has been mentioned before.

"Developing" is a verb. So you admit mouselook is not an equivalent functionality to freetrack at this time.


i seem to remeber that was the case anyway in the prehacked version of il2 (i could be wrong but that is what i seem to remember, even with tir proper). I haven't run il2 since it was hacked


I assure you it works that way in stock game since 4.08. If you don't play the game, why post here? Don't answer that.

.

[Wolf_Rider]

Originally Posted by MadBlaster

.

That's certainly some extrapolating you've done there




it is an alternative..argue it any way you like, it is an alternative

develop it properly and you could probably knock yourself out

mouse look is an alternative, regardless of how much twisting or inferring you may attempt

and I've been waiting for CoD since then, plus hoping to keep up with developments. You don't have a problem with that, do you??

it was about then the sim was hacked (iirc)... before the hack, TIR only had 3DoF support (iirc) as the cockpit 3d modelling wasn't set up for the full 6Dof... leaving gaps and missing parts in the model (iirc)

[sigur_ros]

Originally Posted by Wolf_Rider

no body is saying FT shouldn't be used in a clean form... remove the need for NP files and your more than likely set.

Naturalpoint themselves admit it is clean in this edit to Freetrack wikipedia page:

" In the new FreeTrack releases the copyrighted material has generally been removed from the binaries"

From horses mouth.

[Blackdog_kt]

Originally Posted by Novotny

Edit whilst posting:: I just noted Madblaster's response, and as such should read Blackdog's post, even though it's bound to take me into bloody March.

Edit:: Hi Blackdog! ignore the above

Surprised, are we?

Originally Posted by Wolf_Rider

NP doesn't seem to want their software used in such fashion though

That's the thing we will agree to disagree on then. If i alter my registry to make my PC think that "blackdog's awesome headtracking software" is naturalpoint's dll file, that doesn't change the fact that what i'm using is in truth NOT naturalpoint software, with no software of NP being used in any way or form. What's used is windows registry editor. If sometime in the future ms sidewinder sticks got blacklisted by the flightsim developers i'd do something similar and tell my PC that my joystick is in fact a generic model to keep it working.

The workaround is a cause of the restriction, not the other way around. Plus as long as the workaround doesn't use copyrighted bits, apart from the game IDs i mentioned before which according to law should not be copyrightable in the first place, it's perfectly legal.
I don't get what the fuss is all about.

Originally Posted by Wolf_Rider

You know full well that unless NP software is installed on the machine, Freetrack can't use NP anything to access what it wants. The clear example of this is FSX. It has its Simmconnect, yet users pan that in favour of using the FT through NP route... this has been mentioned before.

Actually i don't know it, that's what i said in my previous post. Unless someone opens the files in a programming tool and goes through the code comparing bit by bit to tell me how it's done, i can't pass judgment either way. Maybe FT's dll is a hacked knock off of NP's dll, maybe it's not, but i won't pass judgment when i have no proof whatsoever either way.

Maybe i wasn't clear and you misunderstood how it works? In this case let me rephrase it. The game doesn't need to use any kind of NP software for headtracking to work. What it needs is to think it's using NP's dll because there's no alternative standard in the industry yet, but the actual file can be substituted by any suitable software.

It's like we're 20 years in the past and the only one making PC joysticks is quickshot. You buy a stick from a brand new company named CH products but the games you play only recognize quickshot, because they were made when nobody else made joysticks. What do you do? You make your game think that you're using a quickshot stick, but you are very much indeed using a CH products stick in reality. Are you infringing on anyone's copyrights? Not really. What you are doing is making up for obsolete games not supporting your alternate hardware, that's all. Of course this scenario never happened because people back then didn't hold copyrights on which stick works with gameports.

Illustrating this distinction (between actually using someone else's copyrighted software as opposed to making your hardware think that you are when you're not) is why i keep mentioning my buddy and how he coded his own headtracker. The guy did everything from scratch, he just "told" his PC "this is the file you want, work with that". At no point is any kind of NP software getting used.

And before someone says "but the registry key is filed under a naturalpoint title", well, if we were to pay royalties every time we type down the company's name then every single one of us posting in this thread would be in big trouble already
It's not naturalpoint at all, he just tells his PC that it is but it's not.

If the games would work with a generic interface he would tell his PC that it's a generic headtracker, or maybe a trackIR user who wanted to use another piece of software could make his PC "think" that his trackIR camera is not tracIR but a wiimote working under freetrack, etc etc.

As long as the code is not copied and distributed verbatim and the hardware items have been bought and paid in cold hard cash, it's no business whatsoever of the guy making it how the end user customizes them. That's my attitude in general about consumer rights. You have my money, i have your receipt, i'm respecting your copyrights/trademarks/patents, so it's none of your business what i do with it from now on.
If i buy a car and i want to make modifications, the most the car company can do is void my warranty. However, if the modifications are done properly the car won't refuse to start.




EDIT:

Originally Posted by sigur_ros

Naturalpoint themselves admit it is clean in this edit to Freetrack wikipedia page:

" In the new FreeTrack releases the copyrighted material has generally been removed from the binaries"

From horses mouth.

Interesting, so they used some of NP's code almost verbatim but now they don't anymore? That's just superb then, should be no reason whatsoever for FT not to work with CoD.

Where have you been the past 40 pages man? You could have saved all of us a ton of typing

[Novotny]

And... relax.

I'm glad to see us all cooling off a bit. It is a bit silly, getting so angry about something so unimportant as gaming devices, isn't it? Especially as none of us have any vested interest.

Stipe, forgive me, but I haven't quite understood your last point.

Edit whilst posting:: I just noted Madblaster's response, and as such should read Blackdog's post, even though it's bound to take me into bloody March.

Edit:: Hi Blackdog! ignore the above