Spit sabotaged, Goering releieved

[swiss]

Originally Posted by PE_Tihi

Stick forces on a X52 are quite a bit lower than on a P38,

Huh?
First is a joystick, second a plane.
To simulate the forces you just reduce the output(f.i. 25 when it's actually 100).
Maybe I didn't get your point.

As for the game-in my experience trimming does reduce the maximum throw of a control, even if that should not be so

No? It shouldn't?

Please, feel free to explain how this works in RL.

[PE_Tihi]

Originally Posted by swiss

Huh?
First is a joystick, second a plane.
To simulate the forces you just reduce the output(f.i. 25 when it's actually 100).
Maybe I didn't get your point.



No? It shouldn't?

Please, feel free to explain how this works in RL.

The aim of the trim controls is to relieve the pilot of pulling or pushing the stick with a constant force all the time; that can be tiring. Even the joystick forces can be tiring if you got to hold it quite far away from its neutral position. Among other things, this high constant force makes the hand control the stick in an imprecise manner, with the flight curve getting wavy.

That has been exactly the case using the exponential control curves the game offers for the potentiometer sticks. These are intended to deal with the 'noise' problem of the potentiometers. Namely, in the vicinity of the neutral, the noise can be stronger than the stick signal, twitching the plane and making it shudder all the time. If you reduce the stick output in the zone near to the neutral point, you reduce this shuddering - and farther away the noise effect is less noticeable.

That was the ratio behind the stick output tables of the IL2. Still, using them had several disadvantages; among them - you had to swing your stick far out to get a strong control output. That means, if you wanted to climb constantly, for example, you had to push the stick hard back; moreover, reacting exponentially, the stick output would start growing steeply with each millimeter you pulled, making the precise control impossible; your climb curve looked like a wave.

So the the trim controlls in the Il2 are really necessary if you are using the potentiometer stick and the exponential output curve it needs. Or if you fly any of the pronounced energy fighters like the P38 and don't want to throw away an ounce of energy. For the lesser mortals like me with a hall sensor stick- the hand alone gives a control that is precise enough in most cases.

That is what I meant, and I hope i could explain it, too; if not, do feel free to ask, please.

[Falke]

PE_Tihi - There is another problem, too; the plane has a strong nose up trim. If you trim it out, you wont have the full up elevator for a narrow turn. I didnt even mention it.

So do the 109's

[PE_Tihi]

Originally Posted by Falke

PE_Tihi - There is another problem, too; the plane has a strong nose up trim. If you trim it out, you wont have the full up elevator for a narrow turn. I didnt even mention it.

So do the 109's

Any plane pushes its nose slightly up when you open the throttle, that's normal, Bf does it too. I fly the Bf quite a lot. And if you dont know what am I talking about here, then you do not fly the Spit very much.

[PE_Tihi]

Originally Posted by swiss

Huh?
First is a joystick, second a plane.
To simulate the forces you just reduce the output(f.i. 25 when it's actually 100).
Maybe I didn't get your point.



No? It shouldn't?

Please, feel free to explain how this works in RL.

I see now I answered only a part of your questions. What you mean is the output reduction to simulate the growing stick forces at high speeds; this cannot be done by the stick output table, it is done by the game code, dynamically, according to the plane speed. (No sense in reducing it at the stick, to be in force all the time irrespective of the plane speed)

Trim surfaces on the WWII planes looked like small 'rudders on a rudder', small control surfaces that would offset the main control surface slightly from its neutral line. Trim surface had to go down a bit to push the elevator up into a climb position. It ll be clear to you , that the maximum control moment of the elevator would be slightly reduced in it's extreme upward (climb) position, trimming surface deflecting the air-stream in the 'wrong', downward direction slightly.
So , if you trim 'UP', the effect of the elevator in the extreme upwards position would be slightly reduced.
It is more or less opposite in IL2, where trimming the elevator DOWN, for example, reduces the effectiveness of the upwards elevator, unless you pull it to the really extreme position- and nobody ever does that actually.
To really simulate the trim, the stick should move slightly as you apply it, hands off. As you see, that is impossible to recreate exactly.
Take a look at the plane elevators on ground in the game, put it to climb position and use the trim. On a real plane the elevator and the stick move always together. In any position except the extreme one, the trimmed elevator in-game is some degrees off from where the stick says it should be. As the elevator nears its extreme throw, the game has to put these two positions together.

[swiss]

Originally Posted by PE_Tihi

Trim surfaces on the WWII planes looked like small 'rudders on a rudder', small control surfaces that would offset the main control surface slightly from its neutral line. Trim surface had to go down a bit to push the elevator up into a climb position. It ll be clear to you , that the maximum control moment of the elevator would be slightly reduced in it's extreme upward (climb) position, trimming surface deflecting the air-stream in the 'wrong', downward direction slightly.
So , if you trim 'UP', the effect of the elevator in the extreme upwards position would be slightly reduced.

Aha, so it does influence throw.
Funny you wrote:

As for the game-in my experience trimming does reduce the maximum throw of a control, even if that should not be so

Btw: not all planes had trim ruders, the 109/190 had some sheet metal which bent on the ground afaik.

It is more or less opposite in IL2, where trimming the elevator DOWN, for example, reduces the effectiveness of the upwards elevator, unless you pull it to the really extreme position- and nobody ever does that actually.

I'll have to check that, but...
As much as I hate to say it, I think you got a valid(your only one imho) point there.
It would also explain why using trim in IL2 reduces your turn radius.
(hear say - if it really does, that should be on the top of fixes)

[TheGrunch]

That is maybe because in one of the later patches the game's stick deflection model was changed to a force based rather than simply an absolute control deflection based one? Not sure.