I Want my 4.09 Spit FM's back.........

[Triggaaar]

Originally Posted by Sven

If I remember right this is what a spitfire pilot said in an interview: "The spitfire could be flown by any idiot."
In that point of view IL2 got it spot on, the plane is meant for idiots.

I assumed you were just being silly with that comment, but...

Originally Posted by Sven

The pilot obviously meant flying the plane not mastering it, that's something totally different. The plane was meant for idiots ( read fresh pilots, as the Spitfire pilot obviously meant.)

Er, what? Are you for real? It was designed as an interceptor, with good climb rate and high manoeuvrability.

You think the Spitfire was designed primarily with fresh pilots in mind (so it could have been better if designed with experienced pilots in mind). You're either trying to stir up an arguement, or you're clueless. It's impossible to argue that the Spitfire wasn't highly capable in real life dogfights.

Originally Posted by Oktoberfest

At least my plane taught me some skills to defeat better planes. I doubt it happens with the spit.

So the real Spit was designed for idiots, and consequently those idiots never learnt to defeat better planes. It's a wonder any Spit pilot scored a kill.

I like to fly Spits and although I've flown 109s and 190s a lot, I flown Spits a lot more. But I get more kills more easily in a 190. Fly high, drop down and boom, there's nothing of the opponent left, even if they're in a well armoured IL2. And if a pair of Spits are on your tail, into a gentle dive and bye bye Spits. When flying a Spit against a couple of 109s or 190s though (lets say one of each in this example) it's a different matter. Running is not an option. You'll probably get shot down, but you'll learn a fair bit along the way, and when you win the fight it feels good. Meanwhile the 190 pilot learns that he's going to have to completely blow the Spit up to stop the 109 stealing the kill, and the 109 pilot learns to cut in.

[Sven]

"Er, what? Are you for real? It was designed as an interceptor, with good climb rate and high manoeuvrability."

I never said it wasn't?

"You think the Spitfire was designed primarily with fresh pilots in mind (so it could have been better if designed with experienced pilots in mind). You're either trying to stir up an arguement, or you're clueless. It's impossible to argue that the Spitfire wasn't highly capable in real life dogfights."

It is a good and easy highly capable fighter, that's why it could be flown by even idiots, that's totally right, what are you trying to say? Every plane which was very succesful in combat was produced in large numbers was easy enough to let even raw pilots get off in the air, otherwise it wouldn't have been a succesful plane wouldn't it? That's exactly what the Spitfire pilot meant, a good front line fighter, as it's intercepting role of bombers was given to the hurricanes.

I think you made a mistake on your last quote, since I never wrote it
Oktoberfest was the author I believe. Am I trying to get into an ever lasting argument or are you? This all doesn't makes much sense to me.

[Krt_Bong]

The Making Sense Forums are on another website, sorry

[Triggaaar]

Originally Posted by Oktoberfest

I'm talking about Oleg's spit, which was modelled very far from the real spitfire.

I wasn't referring to your comments. Sven was saying that the real plane was meant for idots - which in his words meant fresh pilots.

Given that you almost exclusively fly German bombers, I don't think you're in a great position to comparing the modelling of the Spit against the other fighters in game.

[Oktoberfest]

Originally Posted by Triggaaar

So the real Spit was designed for idiots, and consequently those idiots never learnt to defeat better planes. It's a wonder any Spit pilot scored a kill.

I'm talking about Oleg's spit, which was modelled very far from the real spitfire.

[LoBiSoMeM]

The new Spit FM is great: now we can stall and even enter in a flat spin with it! I like it!

And I still entering in any MP arena and easily killing or put in a run ANY german 109 or 190 with one "match" Spit and same energy in start of fight. The Spit still turning better, climbing better, and the 25lbs can race one 190.

And still a good pair of 109s using tactics providing great trouble. WWII air combat is about TACTICS and TEAMPLAY, not "Unreal Tournement" online or bad flying in SP. People thing to much about "FMs" and forget the tactics. People don't like to fly togheter.

That's why I like MP with comms and training: better experience, more fun, less whinnig about FMs!

[badatflyski]

Funny, this change was awaited for years and i'm glad it really happenned, i only regret the spit's fm was changed only a few months from the release of il2/SoW/BoB/CoD.

And if our friend FC99 read this, i would add that:
"MAN, you forgot to change 2lines in the BMW_800_Series"

1° Carburetor 1, WTF? still the same error? you're jocking me
2° EngineAcceleration 3.0 WTF again?!? FC, do you search the fight?

[Nicholaiovitch]

It would be nice to hear from the TD chap who must have spent hours researching and then implementing his findings in making the changes to the FM.

Could we please have a detailed response from TD?

From my point of view, I tried to find something from within 4.10 that would help try and fly this new FM with more success.

One of the new additions is the ability to set the value of trim input from within the arming page by selecting a joystick profile (if you are lucky enough to have an X52 or similar with trim input via a wheel and are able to assign an axis). I therefore set about building a joystick profile specifically for the early MkV.

Starting with rudder trim profile (to try and counter the new and very sensitive lateral instability) I ended up with my sliders for rudder trim all set at 35. This enables the use of full right rudder trim for take-off as IRL pilot's manual entries. This also provides a far less sensitive in-flight trim input reducing oscillation. Although not ridding the aileron trim issue problem, it does seem to provide less stick input once a fine rudder trim setting is achieved.

For elevator trim settings, I ended up with the left slider at 40 and the last slider at 85 with a straight line between. This also gives a reduced trim sensitivity and the last setting of 85 gives a stick free approach speed of around 1.3VS (80-90mph) in the landing configuration with approach power of 25-30%.

These settings seem to help provide a profile tailored to the new FM and I am now using them for all the variants.

Until we hear a detailed description of how TD came to produce this new FM, it seems sensible to try and work around it and try and see from their point of view how allowing up to 4 joystick profiles helps to enable one set of controls to fly all the varying aircraft types with all their various trim requirements.

Please TD....could you give us more depth in your reasoning for the changes and help to satisfy the huge interest in this subject.

Thanks...

Nicholaiovitch

[6S.Manu]

Originally Posted by badatflyski

Funny, this change was awaited for years and i'm glad it really happenned, i only regret the spit's fm was changed only a few months from the release of il2/SoW/BoB/CoD.

And if our friend FC99 read this, i would add that:
"MAN, you forgot to change 2lines in the BMW_800_Series"

1° Carburetor 1, WTF? still the same error? you're jocking me
2° EngineAcceleration 3.0 WTF again?!? FC, do you search the fight?

Now I remember! It's FC99 the guy who fought alone in a Spit against 5 Doras and kicked our a$$.

[FC99]

Originally Posted by badatflyski

And if our friend FC99 read this, i would add that:
"MAN, you forgot to change 2lines in the BMW_800_Series"

1° Carburetor 1, WTF? still the same error? you're jocking me
2° EngineAcceleration 3.0 WTF again?!? FC, do you search the fight?

Hi mate,
1. Irrelevant
2. 4.11 , that and some other things too

Originally Posted by Nicholaiovitch

It would be nice to hear from the TD chap who must have spent hours researching and then implementing his findings in making the changes to the FM.

Could we please have a detailed response from TD?

~ 9 months have been spent on research which include everything we could find on the net, visits to UK national archives and discussion with pilot who fly Spitfires.

Is new FM perfect? No it is not but it is still the best you can find in combat flight sim IMO.

Originally Posted by Fenrir

Also, to clarify, I don't want a return to the 4.09 Spitfire FMs; I quite like the new stall/energy characteristics.

The only issue I have is with the lateral trim.

Well, if that's the only issue you have with new FM than we can be quite pleased with the job done. As you probably know, we will release Bug Fix patch and some changes in FM are possible. Some of the planes in 4.10 didn't get latest FM files and AFAIK Spits are among them.

Originally Posted by Wolf_Rider

Between 1940 and 1946, Henshaw flew a total of 2,360 Spitfires and Seafires, more than 10% of total production.[98][99]

And this is how it looked.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCmzY...ayer_embedded#

It is interesting to notice that first time we saw that video was after 4.10 was released, I'd say that our model is very close to what you can see in video.