If UBI's DRM scheme is unacceptable...

[Wolf_Rider]

@ Richie

the end user doesn't "own" the game though ... the end user purchases a license to install and run the software.

Originally Posted by WTE_Galway

The pirate scare is a little bit like the mythical terrorist scare, its exaggerated out of all proportion.

Its well documented that:

a) commercial pirates will crack any DRM if the title is worth selling out of Shanghai
b) casual pirates tend to be collectors who would never buy the product anyway.

The REAL purpose of these online DRM is to prevent resale of the products second hand on ebay once the user is bored with them. It also makes the move to "pay per year/month" software eventually much easier.

By the way I am amazed how many people on these forums seem to get outraged at NG for insisting on royalties and then turn around and endorse onerous DRM schemes. Seems a bit hypocritical really.

well, there ya go, you made the point for us... piracy = loss of profit.
Limited activations goes some way to prevent the resale factor, but is far from a perfect solution... so back to online verifcation/ activation


as far as (the name unmentionable) NG goes... they are claiming copyright for Government works, which isn't copyrightable. The use of the brand name is though, which is why many have suggested to run with the naval designations under that Government Works/ artistic depiction clause. but then its also strange that an AI only version is selectable ingame.

I have to agree with an intrusive DRM system (Sony comes to mind here) not being the way to go, but I have no concern about the need for an online verification check and neither should anyone else who is genuine.... like I said "blame the pirates". I also don't agree with "renting the software" (pay to play) either

[OrangeYoshi]

Originally Posted by Wolf_Rider

well, there ya go, you made the point for us... piracy = loss of profit

I'd argue that piracy actually increases profits, and that DRM of any kind decreases profits.

Why? Free marketing and ease of use.

First of all, you will never stop the pirates. No matter what kind of DRM you put on something, the pirates will crack it. Just look at Silent Hunter V.

Second of all, because you can't stop the pirates, any kind of DRM will actually cost the company money. Legitimate customers will turn to cracked versions than give them less of a hassle while installing or playing.

Third of all, many pirates download a game illegally to try it out or to hold them over until they are in a financial situation where they can pay for it. Not all people who pirate a game will never pay for it.

Lastly, the more people that can get access to your game, the more money you will make off of it. If someone buys the game and shows it to a friend, the friend might buy the game. If someone pirates the game and shows it to a friend, that friend might buy the game as well. Not all pirates who never pay for games hang out with strictly like-minded people.

[Wolf_Rider]

it'd be a casuist argument though

[Blackdog_kt]

Originally Posted by Wolf_Rider

@ Richie

the end user doesn't "own" the game though ... the end user purchases a license to install and run the software.

So, if i loose my IL2 DVD, i can contant Ubi and they absolutely have to send me a new one, right? After all, i still have the license i paid for, don't i?
I guess you see how this is just a "whatever suits us in each separate case" attitude by certain companies

Originally Posted by Wolf_Rider

well, there ya go, you made the point for us... piracy = loss of profit.
Limited activations goes some way to prevent the resale factor, but is far from a perfect solution... so back to online verifcation/ activation


as far as (the name unmentionable) NG goes... they are claiming copyright for Government works, which isn't copyrightable. The use of the brand name is though, which is why many have suggested to run with the naval designations under that Government Works/ artistic depiction clause. but then its also strange that an AI only version is selectable ingame.

I have to agree with an intrusive DRM system (Sony comes to mind here) not being the way to go, but I have no concern about the need for an online verification check and neither should anyone else who is genuine.... like I said "blame the pirates". I also don't agree with "renting the software" (pay to play) either

I don't necessarily disagree with this. Like i said before, i support some form of copy protection to delay the inevitable. What i don't support is poorly thought out DRM, which is usually a fancy way to say "people who don't pay actually play a leaner and better working version of the same game as the legitimate customer".

The main criteria about copy protection are the following:
1) Does it work for long enough to help the devs turn a profit?
2) Does it work in a way that doesn't make the pirated version even more attractive (ie, by inconveniencing the legitimate buyer)?
3) If it is a hassle to the legitimate customer, does it at least come with some added value features to offset that and will it be tuned down a notch as sales decrease over time?

That's all there is to it really. Any method of DRM/copy protection/whatever we like to call it that doesn't answer yes on 2 out of 3 is a failed method.

[Wolf_Rider]

Originally Posted by Blackdog_kt

So, if i loose my IL2 DVD, i can contant Ubi and they absolutely have to send me a new one, right? After all, i still have the license i paid for, don't i?
I guess you see how this is just a "whatever suits us in each separate case" attitude by certain companies

In most cases that would be a satifactory arrangement and should be possible, dependant on certain conditions being met. I also believe it should be allowable to burn a copy for back up purposes... but, thanks to pirates and their antics, they seem tohave $#%^%$# that up for everybody else.

Originally Posted by Blackdog_kt

I don't necessarily disagree with this. Like i said before, i support some form of copy protection to delay the inevitable. What i don't support is poorly thought out DRM, which is usually a fancy way to say "people who don't pay actually play a leaner and better working version of the same game as the legitimate customer".

The main criteria about copy protection are the following:
1) Does it work for long enough to help the devs turn a profit?
2) Does it work in a way that doesn't make the pirated version even more attractive (ie, by inconveniencing the legitimate buyer)?
3) If it is a hassle to the legitimate customer, does it at least come with some added value features to offset that and will it be tuned down a notch as sales decrease over time?

That's all there is to it really. Any method of DRM/copy protection/whatever we like to call it that doesn't answer yes on 2 out of 3 is a failed method.

we seem to be saying a similar thing there.
So, what would the problem be with online activation/ online uninstall/ limited activations (contact developer/ publisher for approval for more in the case of activations being burnt through accidentally, being possible) and an online verification for each and every time a user makes a connection to a multiplayer server, a verification check for update/ patch?

[T}{OR]

Some people need to redefine their way of thinking. I am all into protecting developer's work etc. But...

The mistake here is to believe that any software (publicly released) can be protected at all. Operating systems, and all software that is wide spread gets hacked in a mater of hours, even minutes. Forcing a protection that will bring unnecessary problems to the legit customers equals shooting yorself in the foot. More so, todays software gets hacked even before you can buy it of the shelves. In plain and simple words - it is a loosing battle in which (if you turn to the intrusive and hated DRM) we could end up with a hassle-free product for the pirates and those using pirated copies.

It is time to get real. There are many many other options for making a game more appealing to the legit buyers than pirates. Be it with quality product overall, regular patches or updates & add-ons, or via some other stuff that rocks their boat. Fortunately (via stuff shown) Oleg knows this - game map and Spitfire manual anyone?

A good example (like others stated already) is the latest StarCraft 2. Haven't played it myself but the philosophy there is what is already showing as the way forward.

Thus my money goes on the one time activation for this particular piece of software. We should know in a month time.

[6S.Manu]

I love Steam.. it's true that the application is a little buggy and the game are REALLY expensive (I prefer to buy on play.com) but you can easily find special offers (I bought more 10 games this Xmas, between 5€ and 10€ each, and I bought some games as gift for other persons).

There's the friend list system who works very well; it's like to have hyperlobby but actually you can chat with them even if they are playing yet (in any game).

The results list that is inserted in almost every Steam game is challenging and it will pushes you to play different roles in the game (I'm playing with my friends to reach the 100% in L4D2, probably in IL2:CoD there will be results as fighter and bomber like "kill a 109 at 7km", "land without elevators in a He111", "kill 5 He111 in a single mission" and so on)

And the last one is that Steam autopatches the game automatically and when you backup the game on an external HD you don't need to install the patches again and again.

It's all very simple; the only games who has issues were Mass Effect (fixed disabling the In-Game function of Steam) and Mount & Blade: Warband (fixed in 4 hours by Steam itself).

About account stealing: I haven't experienced that (and I've 2 accounts), but I don't think it will be a problem. I'm more scared about my gmail account (at least there are no sensible information in Steam, there is no privacy issue since there are no data if not the game list).

[addman]

Interesting reasoning going on here. Some claim DRM is a way for the publishers to control how the people play, how does that make ANY sense from ANY perspective?LOL! I don't now wether to laugh or cry at the DRM haters, I'll mention a few common "anti-DRM" arguments:

1. I don't have a stable internet connection so I can't play if I'm offline.
In this case that argument flies right out the door since it seems the game only requires online ACTIVATION. I presume most of you know what activation means. Now, IF the game will need to be AUTHENTICATED online whilst playing it then it might be a problem for some people. Now, in most developed countries even the slowest DSL connection is stable enough, I have an 8Mbit DSL connection and it drops about 1 time/2 months, I restart the modem ca 10-20 sec and it works again. If you are living in a developing country then I can see some issues of course.

2. I want to be able to play the game on the go (offline).
Hmm, who plays a flightsim "on the go"? I sometimes bring my Nintendo DS or PSP around on trips or whatever but even those are cumbersome and especially the PSP takes a good time to load some games. So if you are on a business trip or something you actually bring your huge-*ss gaming laptop with you? You're gonna need a joystick, where do you put your HOTAS or even a "smaller" joystick? in your back pocket? They won't even fit in a small suitcase! Ok, presume you DO bring all that stuff with you on your trips, most hotels (even cheaper ones) have free Wlan.

There are more arguments of course. Why is there DRM? To scare off customers? I don't think so, customers=€. DRM exists because of rampant piracy. Piracy has basically destroyed the Sony PSP and the Nintendo DS and it's not helping PC gaming by any means. The XBox 360 and the PS3 gets firmware updates regularely that makes sure you don't have a hardware modified consoles. Also, if you want to be able to play Call of Duty: Black Ops online -most people play it online- you need a valid copy. Latest is that security loopholes in the PS3 hardware/software have been discovered by some self-justified hacker group. They claim -of course- that it's good for those who want to use homebrew apps on their PS3 but we all know what the reason really is.

Point is, DRM is there to protect from piracy so that the games will generate enough profit for a + figure on the publishers/developers accounts so that they may CONTINUE to produce and publish games. Those of you who don't like DRM, fine! don't buy the game and don't play the game. You might as well stop posting on this forum since you wont play the game when it's released -what's the point really?-. As for me, I'm gonna get the "edition for the few", install it and play it for -hopefully- many years to come. DRM doesn't bother me in any way, but that's just me and this is me being subjective

[=Kike=]

Originally Posted by addman

Interesting reasoning going on here. Some claim DRM is a way for the publishers to control how the people play, how does that make ANY sense from ANY perspective?LOL! I don't now wether to laugh or cry at the DRM haters, I'll mention a few common "anti-DRM" arguments:

1. I don't have a stable internet connection so I can't play if I'm offline.
In this case that argument flies right out the door since it seems the game only requires online ACTIVATION. I presume most of you know what activation means. Now, IF the game will need to be AUTHENTICATED online whilst playing it then it might be a problem for some people. Now, in most developed countries even the slowest DSL connection is stable enough, I have an 8Mbit DSL connection and it drops about 1 time/2 months, I restart the modem ca 10-20 sec and it works again. If you are living in a developing country then I can see some issues of course.

2. I want to be able to play the game on the go (offline).
Hmm, who plays a flightsim "on the go"? I sometimes bring my Nintendo DS or PSP around on trips or whatever but even those are cumbersome and especially the PSP takes a good time to load some games. So if you are on a business trip or something you actually bring your huge-*ss gaming laptop with you? You're gonna need a joystick, where do you put your HOTAS or even a "smaller" joystick? in your back pocket? They won't even fit in a small suitcase! Ok, presume you DO bring all that stuff with you on your trips, most hotels (even cheaper ones) have free Wlan.

There are more arguments of course. Why is there DRM? To scare off customers? I don't think so, customers=€. DRM exists because of rampant piracy. Piracy has basically destroyed the Sony PSP and the Nintendo DS and it's not helping PC gaming by any means. The XBox 360 and the PS3 gets firmware updates regularely that makes sure you don't have a hardware modified consoles. Also, if you want to be able to play Call of Duty: Black Ops online -most people play it online- you need a valid copy. Latest is that security loopholes in the PS3 hardware/software have been discovered by some self-justified hacker group. They claim -of course- that it's good for those who want to use homebrew apps on their PS3 but we all know what the reason really is.

Point is, DRM is there to protect from piracy so that the games will generate enough profit for a + figure on the publishers/developers accounts so that they may CONTINUE to produce and publish games. Those of you who don't like DRM, fine! don't buy the game and don't play the game. You might as well stop posting on this forum since you wont play the game when it's released -what's the point really?-. As for me, I'm gonna get the "edition for the few", install it and play it for -hopefully- many years to come. DRM doesn't bother me in any way, but that's just me and this is me being subjective

+1

[Wolf_Rider]

+2