Constructive comments on BOB historical accuracy in Acft skins/markings

[WTE_Galway]

Originally Posted by DoolittleRaider

With IL-2, it took a 3rd party person to create "Mat Manager" which provided historically correct tactical markings, varied insignia and markings by nationality and timeframes, etc... I can't recall the creator's name, but his contribution was invaluable to those of us concerned with historical accuracy and detail. Will SOW:BOB include the variety of historically researched markings for selection by the user, as did Mat manager?

On another note, some of my comments/observations referred to placement/locations of certain markings/code letters...If the locations are wrong, then i assume the "skin Template' might be wrong and not allow the user to make an historically correct skin by himself.

Hope I am continuing to sound positive, and supportive of Oleg's Team.

Many people use MAT manager in IL2 just for the weathered markings. To put it quite bluntly the default markings in IL2 are ugly and look like model airplane decals. The IL2_MAT manager lets you replace them with something that looks more like what you see in actual photo's (the alternative of course is to use skins with markings provided bu the skinner).

So far the markings in SOW still have this stick on decal effect however I am pretty sure I read somewhere weathering effects are being implemented in the final game.

The other issue with default placements is that RAF markings seem to vary as to whether the right hand side placement reversed the order of Squadron ID and aircraft ID or just mirrored the left side.

[Flying Pencil]

excellent research!!

Originally Posted by DoolittleRaider

Also, I do not believe that any 110's of any LW unit had the Code letters on the fuselage forward of the cockpit...that is a purely historically inaccurate placement.
The BOB update screenie:

I too saw that, and think it is a dynamic application of codes, and in this care the AA is meant to be a staffelwappen stand-in.

Remains to be seen.

[csThor]

Guys ... Again!!!

The code letters simply show that something can be placed there. Why? Because Stab/ZG 26 and Stab I./ZG 26 are known to have used fighter-style markings there.

[kendo65]

Originally Posted by DoolittleRaider

Recent SOW:BOB update showing a Bf110 of Zerstorergeschwader 76, in this case the code letters indicating this would be the mount of the ZG76 II Gruppe staff adjutant


What it should look like...note the shark teeth, specifically, which were on all II./ZG76 110's from the Battle of France onward, and also the camouflage paint scheme...a scheme of multi-green colors specifically dictated by RLM rather than the later browns and other colors in various theaters:

If the marking/skins system is anything like il-2, the 'discrepancy' is down to the use of an initially limited set of 'generic' skins for each aircraft. The player can choose to select any skin and apply any unit markings on top - the result in most cases will not be 100% accurate historically, but it gives a reasonably economical way of covering a vast number of aircraft and units.

The solution for the accuracy fiends - as in il2 - will be when skinners make dedicated 100% accurate recreations of individual aircraft (or whole squadrons )

Also, I don't think Luthier (?) was necessarily trying to nail a particular aircraft in accurate detail - it's probably more of a rough thrown-together illustration.

Similar comments on the Spits too I think.

The marking system is more complex than il-2 regarding postioning and options but still generic - for the final word in accuracy it'll be down to the skinners.

[DoolittleRaider]

Originally Posted by kendo65

If the marking/skins system is anything like il-2, the 'discrepancy' is down to the use of an initially limited set of 'generic' skins for each aircraft. The player can choose to select any skin and apply any unit markings on top ...

The solution for the accuracy fiends - as in il2 - will be when skinners make dedicated 100% accurate recreations of individual aircraft (or whole squadrons
...
The marking system is more complex than il-2 regarding postioning and options but still generic - for the final word in accuracy it'll be down to the skinners.

The increased complexity/detail of the SOW:BOB marking system is a Big Plus and a welcome feature....and I agree that ultimately skinners will win the day in the end. I think part of my comments have reflected a concern that some basic 'positioning' and 'optional' markings/colors might not yet have been incorporated...therefore, I commented on the need for the 'correct' balkenkreuz for 1940 LW acft/operations, and on the 'postioning' of the third letter on Spits, and I think suggesting/hoping that items such as the II.ZG76 Shark teeth (and wasp for III./ZG76) be included as options from the get-go.
Perhaps in a future update a sampling of such optional markings might be shown

[kendo65]

Originally Posted by DoolittleRaider

...
I think part of my comments have reflected a concern that some basic 'positioning' and 'optional' markings/colors might not yet have been incorporated...therefore, I commented on the need for the 'correct' balkenkreuz for 1940 LW acft/operations, and on the 'postioning' of the third letter on Spits, and I think suggesting/hoping that items such as the II.ZG76 Shark teeth (and wasp for III./ZG76) be included as options from the get-go.
Perhaps in a future update a sampling of such optional markings might be shown

Good points there. I didn't comment about them in my post in order to keep it short, but correcting the balkankreuz and changing the letter positioning to what seems to be the more common style would both be good ideas.

Would also be nice to see dedicated shark teeth skin too - if it applies for whole gruppe then can make a good case for having it.

WTE_Galway, I think the SOW markings are much better than the stock il-2 (which I agree were poor - I used Mat Manager too). SOW may not have shown much weathering on the markings (or on the skins either for that matter), but they integrate really well into the paintschemes. I really disagree that it is a stuck-on decal effect. I thought that they'd done a really good job.

[DoolittleRaider]

Originally Posted by kendo65

...
Would also be nice to see dedicated shark teeth skin too - if it applies for whole gruppe then can make a good case for having it.
...

Yes, based on input from true experts, I think we can very definitely conclude that all aircraft of II./ZG76 had the shark teeth.

[WTE_Galway]

Originally Posted by kendo65

WTE_Galway, I think the SOW markings are much better than the stock il-2 (which I agree were poor - I used Mat Manager too). SOW may not have shown much weathering on the markings (or on the skins either for that matter), but they integrate really well into the paintschemes. I really disagree that it is a stuck-on decal effect. I thought that they'd done a really good job.

SOW is definitely better than IL2 in this regard but the WIP photos still have unnatural markings. For example the balkencruz on the left wing in this shot from earlier in the thread:

[Rodolphe]

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Originally Posted by DoolittleRaider

What it should look like...note the shark teeth, specifically, which were on all II./ZG76 110's from the Battle of France onward, and also the camouflage paint scheme...a scheme of multi-green colors specifically dictated by RLM rather than the later browns and other colors in various theaters.

Though a march 2008 screen, this "Haifisch" skin could be available in this game.

Originally Posted by DoolittleRaider

Also, by the time of the BofB, I believe all 110’s would have been using the Wide white bordered Balkenkruezen as shown in this Profile, not the Narrow white trim of the pre-war through 1939 timeframe.

There are always some counter examples.

Bf 110 [/B]3M+AA ZG 2flown by Oblt.Wilhem Schaefer shot down on September 4th 1940.





Bf 110 C-1 U8+HL W. nr. 1372 ZG 26 crewed by Fw. Hermann Brinkmann and uffz. Erwin Grüschow shot down on September 11th 1940.

Note the I. Gruppe white nose and rear fuselage band applied in the latter stage of the Battle of Britain.





On the Russian theatre, this Bf 110 E S9+AH, 1./SKG 210 (SchnellKampfGeschwader 210)
of Oblt Wolfgang Schenk has been seen at Seschtchinskaya in september 1941 wearing these "early style Balkenkreuz".







But it will be nice to have the fuselage "larger Balkenkreuz" for the game Bf110. ; )


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[Rodolphe]

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I could have missed the "perfect" game screen but
I haven't seen any BoB SoW Bf 110 screen with the aircraft letter codes duplicated on the upper wing like on those actual Zerstörer pictures.
























Not to mention the Do 17, He 111, Ju 87, Ju 88 ...

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