Friday 2010-12-03 Dev. update and Discussion

[kendo65]

I'm also thinking that triggers / scripting could be used in creative ways to reflect the use of 12 Group squadrons.

Admittedly, that won't give those who want to fly in one of the Duxford squadrons the experience that they want, but it could maybe reflect their role in the battle reasonably well?

[dflion]

Originally Posted by kendo65

I'm also thinking that triggers / scripting could be used in creative ways to reflect the use of 12 Group squadrons.

Admittedly, that won't give those who want to fly in one of the Duxford squadrons the experience that they want, but it could maybe reflect their role in the battle reasonably well?

Looking at the full area of the BOB map, I think Oleg was in a real 'quandary' (difficult situation). If you move the map up to include Duxford (see map attached) you cut out the Normandy beachhead. I think the map size probably is limited (due to programming) and Oleg went to the maximum.

Kendo has given us the answer, using 'scripting' we can include 12 Group effectively in the the battle, though they would be in an 'airstart scenerio'.

Looking at the map I have attached, let's hope some 'budding map maker' will include 12 and 13 Group in a new map.

Let us all be thankful for what Oleg and his team have done and move on. I would be grateful for some more feedback on the FMB.

DFLion

[Sutts]

We've got to remember that the FMB is included in the package and with this we can create any type of mission we like. In this way we are acting a bit like a general aren't we?

With regards to Duxford, I'd like to know what happens when we fly off the map? I could be wrong but I seem to remember Oleg saying that the land masses of the entire globe are already in the engine...hence the edge of space views we were treated to once. This could mean that the entire UK is already in there but only populated with textures in the extreme south.

With this in mind it MAY be possible for modders in future to introduce a correctly placed Duxford, perhaps with limited terrain features depending on memory limits etc.

Just a thought.

[klem]

Originally Posted by Sutts

We've got to remember that the FMB is included in the package and with this we can create any type of mission we like. In this way we are acting a bit like a general aren't we?..............

kendo, this is my point. Missions can be created by us in which we can decide strategy, distribution of forces, tactics etc. We aren't a slave to the mission generator. But without the resources (Duxford for example) we can't meet the true extent of even just the defensive aspect of the BoB. We may have to settle for a poor fix, another airfield and routing 'rules' to represent Duxford but it's not very realistic and I'd like to know what Oleg thinks.

If anyone is thinking 'realism fanatic' or 'that's way beyond IL-2', well, that's what I expect from a 21st century simulation that has taken over 6 years to create. A massive amount of work has gone into the FMs, FMB, getting the aircraft, vehicles and the grass looking right etc., but not even having an appropriate map is a bit fundamental.

Picking up on DFLion's thoughts on map size restrictions, what happens when we get to the 8th Air Force bombing campaign stretching from England to Berlin? I don't suppose many people will want to sit in a B17 for 4 hours (a scaled down 8hrs?) but that has been done in other air war games. It's a subject for the future but the map size question is likely to arise again.

[Asheshouse]

The map "edge" has to occur somewhere. I think the limits Oleg has chosen are sufficiently large to allow a lot of flexibility in mission building and will keep the majority happy for some time.

I would be interested in knowing whether the coastlines will continue at low resolution beyond the map edge. As mentioned earlier OM has said that the game engine can model the entire globe. This will give a much better view at high altitude than the existing IL2 effect at the map edge.

It s a shame that important sites like Duxford have been left out but I can understand why. On the southern coast I would have preferred to see the line drawn west of Weymouth (Portland), which was the scene of attacks in the Channel Phase. -- but I guess since we have Southampton and Portsmouth we cant complain.

Not having the correct airfields for the Regia Aeronatica seems like a more important omission since we will have their aircraft. -- but then again we are getting a Gloster Gladiator. They were based in the West Country, well off the map. On balance the more aircraft the better.

[winny]

I just wanted to add some facts to this really.


12 Group
As of 1st August 1940 (and most of July) there was only 1 Spitfire Squadron based at Duxford and they flew out of Fowlmere. There was no fighter sqn scrambling out of Duxford as the sqn would fly to Fowlmere early in the morning and were actually scrambled from there.

At this time Bader was flying out of Cottishall which had 1 Spitfire Sqn and 1 Hurricane Sqn. Digby had the same. Of the 32 times which the 'big wing' tactic was ordered up it resulted in combat 7 times.

303 Sqns first kill was 30th August, 2 months after the start of the BoB.
they were stationed at Northholt.

As of the 1st September there was still only 1 Spitfire Sqn at Duxford, but again they were moved forward in the mornings to Fowlmere.
The only sqn actually scrambling from Duxford was 310 (Czech).

Duxford was not an important base during the BoB.

[klem]

Originally Posted by winny

I just wanted to add some facts to this really............

I completely agree although those airfields are north of the current extent of the Map.

I would be happy to see Duxford representing all of those.

Anyway, enough said unless we can hear from Oleg.

[winny]

I completely agree although those airfields are north of the current extent of the Map.

I would be happy to see Duxford representing all of those.

I don't think any 12 Group stations are on the map and I'm not arguing against that it would be nice to have Duxford on the map.
SoW is obviously a Simulation based on 11 Group.

It would be nice if you were able to allow the player to call in sqn's from 12 Group to 11 Group airfields whilst in a mission, and accuratley represent the time delays involved.

Personally, I think it is more important to represent the Squadrons accuratley and be able to use them, than have Duxford.

There's a fine line between 'What it was like' and 'How it was'
If any game was exactly 'How it was' it wouldn't be a game any more, it'd be the longest documentary ever.

If you want to know what it was like to be an 11 Group Fighter Pilot in 1940 then SoW will show you 'what it was like'. If you want to be a 12 group pilot then you should probably give it a miss...

[kendo65]

Originally Posted by klem

kendo, this is my point. Missions can be created by us in which we can decide strategy, distribution of forces, tactics etc. We aren't a slave to the mission generator. But without the resources (Duxford for example) we can't meet the true extent of even just the defensive aspect of the BoB. We may have to settle for a poor fix, another airfield and routing 'rules' to represent Duxford but it's not very realistic and I'd like to know what Oleg thinks.

...

You and Sutts have a fair point there and I actually agree with you. I think a lot of my criticism was about the 'what ifs' and setting strategy aspects that i didn't think was realistically going to be achievable in the campaign - and that the impact of 12 Group in this area could be reflected in other ways.

But, yes, it's a shame we won't be able to script our own missions to simulate being a part of the 'Big Wing' (frustrating experience that I suspect that would be ). But some people may also feel it's a shame not to be able to try (at least once) the German raids from Norway, with maybe slightly changed tactics. People have commented on the Italian bases too. I'm not sure if the restricted map size in this instance is mainly down to the limits of current PC specs or about Oleg's resources/time limits in creating it.

Winny raises some interesting points too.

Good point about future 8th AF situations. I guess that a way will have to be found eventually and I'm sure we'll see things progress and the issues will be solved.

Unfortunately, for now though, no Duxford.

[Conte Zero]

In for a second just to say that, as a complete editor freak (in any game, expecially IL2) I greatly appreciated the last screenshots showing the FMB

Thanks to Oleg and his whole great team.

Cz