Ethics of pilots fighting for the sides in WWII

[Ltbear]

BadAim.

(sorry about English, not native English speaking so trying hard not to be misunderstood)

Im with you, and im one of those he dont hold anything against anyone in the past. I live now, my kids get the future all i can hope is that i have learned from the past. But many around the world need to learn that learning from the past dont meen judging by the past.

People who wount play for a side in a computer game or dont want to visit some country because of some historical past are the worst breed of humans, they are the ones who dont learn from history, but judge by history.

If you judge by history, start looking at your own country first, no matter where you live. Most country`s have some dark spots hanging around.

This is where i could mention the first 50 actions by any of the oooh soo good western countrys ( i live in one of them), but i would rather have people read up on there countrys history than me digging it out.

The brave are those who stand against those who do wrong towards humanity, as a civilian as a soldier as a human...

As a soldier you are caught in a werry bad situation when you se and witness something bad, especialy if its your own buddys who do it. Tell and loose everything, or be silent and keep your comrades, those you fight and die with. No one exept those who have been there knows and feels what im talking about.

Many German soldiers was aware of what was going on. The SS and the (cant remember there name) "clean up groups" that came in after the army had moved on wasent hiding it, the problem is what you do as a soldier with that information, you might get the information the the unit commander, but he knows if he reports it him and maby hes family would end up dead.

But this is not a WW2 German thing. Any wars have these situations, even our days of war (even with western soldiers). But the price for telling is the same, you loose the friends that your life counts on. We outside the combat area will never know what happens, and in some cases i think its the best that way. No war can be fought cleanly, war is a dirty mess, and trying to make somthing like war look "nice" is the worst thing we have ever done....

War is dirty and we have to accept that, if we cant accept that, dont go to war....

Realy hope someone can get sence out of all that lmao...

have a great evening...

LTbear

Actualy this is basic combat psykologi lmao....

[BadAim]

Originally Posted by Ltbear

BadAim.

(sorry about English, not native English speaking so trying hard not to be misunderstood)

Im with you, and im one of those he dont hold anything against anyone in the past. I live now, my kids get the future all i can hope is that i have learned from the past. But many around the world need to learn that learning from the past dont meen judging by the past.

People who wount play for a side in a computer game or dont want to visit some country because of some historical past are the worst breed of humans, they are the ones who dont learn from history, but judge by history.

If you judge by history, start looking at your own country first, no matter where you live. Most country`s have some dark spots hanging around.

This is where i could mention the first 50 actions by any of the oooh soo good western countrys ( i live in one of them), but i would rather have people read up on there countrys history than me digging it out.

The brave are those who stand against those who do wrong towards humanity, as a civilian as a soldier as a human...

As a soldier you are caught in a werry bad situation when you se and witness something bad, especialy if its your own buddys who do it. Tell and loose everything, or be silent and keep your comrades, those you fight and die with. No one exept those who have been there knows and feels what im talking about.

Many German soldiers was aware of what was going on. The SS and the (cant remember there name) "clean up groups" that came in after the army had moved on wasent hiding it, the problem is what you do as a soldier with that information, you might get the information the the unit commander, but he knows if he reports it him and maby hes family would end up dead.

But this is not a WW2 German thing. Any wars have these situations, even our days of war (even with western soldiers). But the price for telling is the same, you loose the friends that your life counts on. We outside the combat area will never know what happens, and in some cases i think its the best that way. No war can be fought cleanly, war is a dirty mess, and trying to make somthing like war look "nice" is the worst thing we have ever done....

War is dirty and we have to accept that, if we cant accept that, dont go to war....

Realy hope someone can get sence out of all that lmao...

have a great evening...

LTbear

Actualy this is basic combat psykologi lmao....

Everything you said makes perfectly good sense, more than I care to admit. War is indeed Hell.

[moilami]

Originally Posted by Ltbear

People who wount play for a side in a computer game or dont want to visit some country because of some historical past are the worst breed of humans, they are the ones who dont learn from history, but judge by history.

Thanks good posting.

I want to comment it because the quoted paragraph made me laugh. Urgh, now this goes political, but for the sake of lol's I say it anyway.

Some years ago I made a decision I wont travel to USA because I read so many strange things happening in there in the name of "homeland security" or whatever. I would still consider twice before I would travel to USA. It would certainly have to be something extremely special and important for me to do it. USA is very scary country novadays because of its government.

I think I will have to launch a wing of Luftwaffe fighters and shoot down some USA bombers to feel more secure Sounds good! Attention, make my Focke-Wulf ready! Scary stuff in the horizon, looks like American bombers

[Splitter]

Originally Posted by moilami

Thanks good posting.

I want to comment it because the quoted paragraph made me laugh. Urgh, now this goes political, but for the sake of lol's I say it anyway.

Some years ago I made a decision I wont travel to USA because I read so many strange things happening in there in the name of "homeland security" or whatever. I would still consider twice before I would travel to USA. It would certainly have to be something extremely special and important for me to do it. USA is very scary country novadays because of its government.

I think I will have to launch a wing of Luftwaffe fighters and shoot down some USA bombers to feel more secure Sounds good! Attention, make my Focke-Wulf ready! Scary stuff in the horizon, looks like American bombers

OK, I'm not quite sure what you were trying to say there, but I will say this: things absolutely have changed here since 9/11. Having 3000 people murdered in the space of a couple hours by religious zealots is bound to have an effect. Of course, making people's lives more difficult is part of what the attackers were after too.

But things have not changed much, if at all, in every day life.

The "security" thing is an ongoing internal debate here. Some of the measures intrude on some basic freedoms we are guaranteed by our constitution. EVERYONE is being inconvenienced in the name of security, but it's not like the american way of life has changed.

As an example, one of the largest debates going on today revolves around security scanning at airports. If you set off the buzzer, or get pulled randomly, you have a choice between having an X-Ray scanner take a naked picture of you, or you can choose to go through a thorough "pat down" search, that includes your privates (thank you Mr. UnderWear Bomber).

That is the price we pay because we do not believe in discrimination (called profiling). The 90 year old grandmother from Boston is treated the same way as the 22 year old young man from Yeman. Does it make sense? That is the debate. Neither of the two people I mentioned are likely to be terrorists, but then I'm sure we would agree that one is more likely to be a terrorist than the other.

So we are being inconvenienced because of the terrorists....how does that make things more scary now? I think you are falling victim to some propaganda. Things have not changed all that much, especially for visitors.

I'm just curious: what "scary" things are you being told?

Splitter

(I have a more on topic post that I will separate out to another post)

[moilami]

Originally Posted by Splitter

So we are being inconvenienced because of the terrorists....how does that make things more scary now? I think you are falling victim to some propaganda. Things have not changed all that much, especially for visitors.

TL;DR: I don't want to be treated like a possible terrorist.


* * *

Sorry, I don't really want to spread that propaganda here. I am an amateur photographer and because of that I have read many stories. But if I list even part of it here it begins to look like propaganda.

I just say that based on all news and experiences I have read, many of those coming from citizens of USA, your country appears to have been changed. You seem to have problems with ground level officials too (police and other security personnel), which is not surprising. If you give too much power to common people they will abuse it.

I don't recommend anyone to not go to USA. More than 99.9% of the visitors wont have any problems there. It is just that your officials can ad hoc do very nasty things if they suspect one is a terrorist. I don't want to get arrested in the airport and interrogated for some days before sent back to where I came from. I don't take that risk. I don't want to ruin my holiday. There are maybe 190 (out of 199 or so) countries in the world I would rather visit. Going into some of them would be quite adventurous, which would be part of the experience. But if I travel to USA, I don't want it to be adventurous because of some security personnel. It just feels wrong Your country is now not what it is supposed to be, in my opinion.

I have plans to do either Touring Murmansk or Touring Alps trip next summer. I know anything can happen in those, but I don't have to fear a single bit that officials of Germany, Switzerland, Poland, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, Austria, Germany, or France would begin to abuse their "rights" against me. Murmansk is a little bit different thing, but huh, much rather Murmansk and Russian cops than USA! That word by the way, USA, was once almost a synonym for a word freedom. No matter how hard I try, I can't say it is so anymore.

So, do you get it? I don't want to be treated like being a possible terrorist. It is offending.

[Skoshi Tiger]

Originally Posted by moilami

If you give too much power to common people they will abuse it.

Unfortunately there may be a fundimental difference in philosophy here.

My way of thinking is that well educated 'common' people are probably the least likely to abuse power.

Cheers!

[moilami]

Originally Posted by Skoshi Tiger

Unfortunately there may be a fundimental difference in philosophy here.

My way of thinking is that well educated 'common' people are probably the least likely to abuse power.

Cheers!

It was badly written sentence by me, I meant police etc. with common people (which they are). But naturally common people should have very little power. Or do you want I can do body search for you girl just because I suspect she might be hiding some sort of terrorist attack plans under the dress Intriguing thought Anyway even thought I would not use that power I don't want it - just to be sure I don't abuse it.

If you give too much power for police etc., like power to arrest people at whim or power to do home/car searches at whim, they will abuse it. That is also when they have got too much power, hmm, even if they would not abuse it often.

[Feathered_IV]

Back on topic, I don't tend to associate the aircraft with the regimes very much. I like aircraft first and foremost. But I view them a little like one might look at animals. Lion vs tiger, stegosaurus vs T-rex etc. Being a bit of a softy, I prefer my weapons of human squander in museums, where they belong. Perhaps that's why I can't feel any enthusiasm for modern military equipment. Unless it's a minimum of fifty years old, I'd prefer not to mess with it.

[Splitter]

Originally Posted by moilami

TL;DR: I don't want to be treated like a possible terrorist.


* * *

Sorry, I don't really want to spread that propaganda here. I am an amateur photographer and because of that I have read many stories. But if I list even part of it here it begins to look like propaganda.

I just say that based on all news and experiences I have read, many of those coming from citizens of USA, your country appears to have been changed. You seem to have problems with ground level officials too (police and other security personnel), which is not surprising. If you give too much power to common people they will abuse it.

I don't recommend anyone to not go to USA. More than 99.9% of the visitors wont have any problems there. It is just that your officials can ad hoc do very nasty things if they suspect one is a terrorist. I don't want to get arrested in the airport and interrogated for some days before sent back to where I came from. I don't take that risk. I don't want to ruin my holiday. There are maybe 190 (out of 199 or so) countries in the world I would rather visit. Going into some of them would be rather adventurous, which would be part of the experience. But if I travel to USA, I don't want it to be adventurous because of some security personnel. It just feels wrong Your country is now not what it is supposed to be, in my opinion.

I have plans to do either Touring Murmansk or Touring Alps trip next summer. I know anything can happen in those, but I don't have to fear a single bit that officials of Germany, Switzerland, Poland, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, Austria, Germany, or France would begin to abuse their "rights" against me. Murmansk is a little bit different thing, but huh, much rather Murmansk and Russian cops than USA! That word by the way, USA, was once almost a synonym for a word freedom. No matter how hard I try, I can't say it is so anymore. Do you get it? I don't want to be treated like being a possible terrorist. It is offending.

Did you give me a TL,DR and then go on to post a similar wall of text? lol. Just joking .

You would not be treated any differently than a US citizen and you would have known that if you had read my post lol. We, citizens, are being treated like terrorists in the airports too. It's an ongoing debate, especially within the last few months. I myself have chosen to fly as little as possible since the most recent changes...my own little protest.

However, knowing what I do about security measures in other countries, there is no appreciable difference where security is concerned. We are just now catching up to what is going on elsewhere in the world on the security side. It's sad that it had to come to this.

BTW, there are plenty of places in the world I would not go to and a lot more that I would not live in given their current direction. So I understand what you are saying.

Splitter

[BadAim]

Originally Posted by moilami

Thanks good posting.

I want to comment it because the quoted paragraph made me laugh. Urgh, now this goes political, but for the sake of lol's I say it anyway.

Some years ago I made a decision I wont travel to USA because I read so many strange things happening in there in the name of "homeland security" or whatever. I would still consider twice before I would travel to USA. It would certainly have to be something extremely special and important for me to do it. USA is very scary country novadays because of its government.

I think I will have to launch a wing of Luftwaffe fighters and shoot down some USA bombers to feel more secure Sounds good! Attention, make my Focke-Wulf ready! Scary stuff in the horizon, looks like American bombers

I have to side with Splitter on this one, mate. It's us who should be afraid of "Homeland Security". So far as I know it's just SOP in Europe. I can relate to finding the Government strange and scary here though. I sleep with a .45 by my head.