Friday 2010-10-29 Dev. update and Discussion

[philip.ed]

Just a bit of sarcasm.

really, the subliminal point is the difference it makes from an eye-witness perspective to either recorded 'fact' or photos/videos.
As much as eye-witness accounts are great, on the surface they aren't wholly credible. I mean, a pilot could exaggerate to great lengths about events, and certainly a pilot never sat in the cockpit and said 'right, I need to remember what these tracers look like just for future reference'.
Having said that, I'm sure they would remember, and if you read any account on the battle, the pilots may explain the tracers with detail. I wish I could remember the pilot, but I have a distinct memory of ann account/book I read where the pilot went into detail about the de-wilde ammunition and how the tracers look. I think I can recall him mention the smoke-trails from the tracer, but I can't give a quote as I can't remember who the chap was.

As for photos and videos, well the old argument that they don't record what the eye sees holds a lot of water. Take anything like that with a pinch of salt really.

And fact? Well, who are we to judge? Until someone does a full test on the different types of ammunition and tracer, we won't know for certain. But certainly Air-Ministry AP's are helpful and so are pilot accounts, and lastly photos and videos.

But no, I did not fight in the war but then I would never attempt to justifiy that I did. and me saying 'I was' is not me trying to lead you on.

However, Tim Elkington, a famous BoB Hurricane pilot, posts (infrequently) at the a2a forums in the BoB2 section, and some of his posts really are illuminating. I'm sure if any one here who has an account there, or wishes to make one, posed the question regarding tracers (or anything similar) Tim may be able to offer a nice explanation. He does some RAF events as well, and i have always wanted to try to go to one to have a chat with him.

[Freycinet]

Originally Posted by philip.ed

Just a bit of sarcasm.

really, the subliminal point is the difference it makes from an eye-witness perspective to either recorded 'fact' or photos/videos.
As much as eye-witness accounts are great, on the surface they aren't wholly credible. I mean, a pilot could exaggerate to great lengths about events, and certainly a pilot never sat in the cockpit and said 'right, I need to remember what these tracers look like just for future reference'.
Having said that, I'm sure they would remember, and if you read any account on the battle, the pilots may explain the tracers with detail. I wish I could remember the pilot, but I have a distinct memory of ann account/book I read where the pilot went into detail about the de-wilde ammunition and how the tracers look. I think I can recall him mention the smoke-trails from the tracer, but I can't give a quote as I can't remember who the chap was.

As for photos and videos, well the old argument that they don't record what the eye sees holds a lot of water. Take anything like that with a pinch of salt really.

And fact? Well, who are we to judge? Until someone does a full test on the different types of ammunition and tracer, we won't know for certain. But certainly Air-Ministry AP's are helpful and so are pilot accounts, and lastly photos and videos.

But no, I did not fight in the war but then I would never attempt to justifiy that I did. and me saying 'I was' is not me trying to lead you on.

However, Tim Elkington, a famous BoB Hurricane pilot, posts (infrequently) at the a2a forums in the BoB2 section, and some of his posts really are illuminating. I'm sure if any one here who has an account there, or wishes to make one, posed the question regarding tracers (or anything similar) Tim may be able to offer a nice explanation. He does some RAF events as well, and i have always wanted to try to go to one to have a chat with him.

All your talking cannot hide the fact that you tried to pretend you fought in uniform. Where I come from that is deeply offensive. Some things cannot be relativized, no matter how much you try.

Yes, I know Tim Elkington from the forums. But just because I read his postings I don't confuse myself with him. I wonder what he'd think about a chat with someone who tries to pass himself off as a veteran.

[Splitter]

I understand your point if someone was really trying to pass themselves off as having served but I honestly saw the original posting as a joke. A sarcastic "nahnah nah nahnah" if you will .

Splitter

[philip.ed]

Yes, thanks Splitter, that was all the post was meant to be
Sorry if I offended anyone. I never tried to pass myself off as anyone though; I didn't say I was so and so...
I do quite a good Douglas Bader impression though.....

[ElAurens]

Thanks for the useful info Jaws.

The FN video taken from the fixed wing aircraft cockpit really shows best how tracers should, and will, look in the sim, with correct colors of course.

I have seen 30.06 tracers fired on a range from a bolt action rifle (US Rifle, cal .30, Model of 1917. Same as the British P14 Enfield only in .30-06 instead of .303) and even standing behind the shooter who was shooting from a bench rest there was no visible "spiral" pattern of the tracer, and no smoke either. This was with WW2 era tracer ammo.

[philip.ed]

Originally Posted by ElAurens

Thanks for the useful info Jaws.

The FN video taken from the fixed wing aircraft cockpit really shows best how tracers should, and will, look in the sim, with correct colors of course.

I have seen 30.06 tracers fired on a range from a bolt action rifle (US Rifle, cal .30, Model of 1917. Same as the British P14 Enfield only in .30-06 instead of .303) and even standing behind the shooter who was shooting from a bench rest there was no visible "spiral" pattern of the tracer, and no smoke either. This was with WW2 era tracer ammo.

Do you think altitude will affect it? If the tracer is burning, wouldn't the burning tracer cause the cold air to condense...? or even if the tracer is burning, smoke would be produced?
Clearly, as Oleg has hinted/said, there were lots of different tracer types, all of which will (hopefully) be modelled.

[Skoshi Tiger]

Originally Posted by ElAurens

Thanks for the useful info Jaws.

The FN video taken from the fixed wing aircraft cockpit really shows best how tracers should, and will, look in the sim, with correct colors of course.

I have seen 30.06 tracers fired on a range from a bolt action rifle (US Rifle, cal .30, Model of 1917. Same as the British P14 Enfield only in .30-06 instead of .303) and even standing behind the shooter who was shooting from a bench rest there was no visible "spiral" pattern of the tracer, and no smoke either. This was with WW2 era tracer ammo.

In all this discussion nobody's mentioned that we have no idea about the condition of the barrels being used in those videos.

After the battle of Milne Bay some of the .50 cals on the RAAF Kittyhawks had been shot out to .60 cal (During the two week long battle, the RAAF fired 200,000 rounds of .50 cal from their Kittyhawks).

I'm sure the balistics from thoses guns would have been interesting.

A few pages back duff442 posted a few charts. The one I found interesting was

http://www.nennstiel-ruprecht.de/bullfly/fig18.htm which showed the 5.56mm AP round.

In it, the spiral motion reduced as the round gyroscopically stabilized itself after leaving the barrel.

Given that the charts only measured the round in the first 8000 calibres (44m for the 5.56mm) I doubt anything other than a high speed camera would be able to distinguish the motion. Unfortunately I can't read the scale (on any of the charts) that shows the magnitude of the displacement being measured.

Cheers!

[Luftwaffepilot]

Has Oleg ever mentioned that SoW will make use of the new technologies like tesselation?

[kendo65]

Originally Posted by Freycinet

All your talking cannot hide the fact that you tried to pretend you fought in uniform. Where I come from that is deeply offensive. Some things cannot be relativized, no matter how much you try.

Yes, I know Tim Elkington from the forums. But just because I read his postings I don't confuse myself with him. I wonder what he'd think about a chat with someone who tries to pass himself off as a veteran.

Sorry, but I really think you are over-reacting. Philip's comment was obviously sarcastic, tongue in cheek - maybe ill-advised, but to build it into some calculated insult to real wartime veterans is ridiculous.

[philip.ed]

I would never dream of saying anything against the brave men/women that served our country in those times.

But my comment was clearly uncalled for. I do have quite a dry, sarcastic humour. I think if I had said that to a mate, or anyone, the expression on my face or the way I said it would have shown it was just a saracastic joke. But on the internet it's very hard to get this accross, the same way it's hard for me to say how sorry I am if I've upset you.