Friday 2010-10-22 Dev. update and Discussion

[Oleg Maddox]

Originally Posted by Splitter

May I try a short summation of what is being written?

(these are no longer random occurrences as in IL-2 where what the damage might be is determined by a percentage chance).
- No complicated start up procedures, at least at release.


Splitter

In IL-2 is two types of damage models:

1. Tha has percentage model in some square of the hit that was in a first version.
2. Co-called complex damage model which include the first one and the modeling of internals up to 40 units in some planes. This model was introduced with the Forgotten Battles forthe new flyable aircaft and in time has been added in most non AI aircraft.

In a model 2 is modelled hit boxes for engine, reductor, supercharger, fuel tanks, etc repeating actual sizes of modelled devices.
It is also included the 3D models of some elevator, rudder, etc control
that also possible to damage by hits and its based on the durability terms.

In Sow we have only the model 2 with way more advaced calculation and several separate hit boxes even for some single devices... say for the engine... I told about modeling of cylinders already for example.

[Splitter]

Originally Posted by Oleg Maddox

In IL-2 is two types of damage models:

1. Tha has percentage model in some square of the hit that was in a first version.
2. Co-called complex damage model which include the first one and the modeling of internals up to 40 units in some planes. This model was introduced with the Forgotten Battles forthe new flyable aircaft and in time has been added in most non AI aircraft.

In a model 2 is modelled hit boxes for engine, reductor, supercharger, fuel tanks, etc repeating actual sizes of modelled devices.
It is also included the 3D models of some elevator, rudder, etc control
that also possible to damage by hits and its based on the durability terms.

In Sow we have only the model 2 with way more advaced calculation and several separate hit boxes even for some single devices... say for the engine... I told about modeling of cylinders already for example.

Thank you for the clarification.

Clickable cockpits: Slipball and others, I think Oleg has said that cockpits will be clickable (some controls) but that doesn't mean you MUST click. I am sure there will be corresponding keyboard shortcuts if you don't want to click.

Does that make sense?

Splitter

[xnomad]

Originally Posted by Oleg Maddox

In IL-2 is two types of damage models:

1. Tha has percentage model in some square of the hit that was in a first version.
2. Co-called complex damage model which include the first one and the modeling of internals up to 40 units in some planes. This model was introduced with the Forgotten Battles forthe new flyable aircaft and in time has been added in most non AI aircraft.

In a model 2 is modelled hit boxes for engine, reductor, supercharger, fuel tanks, etc repeating actual sizes of modelled devices.
It is also included the 3D models of some elevator, rudder, etc control
that also possible to damage by hits and its based on the durability terms.

In Sow we have only the model 2 with way more advaced calculation and several separate hit boxes even for some single devices... say for the engine... I told about modeling of cylinders already for example.

Hi Oleg,

What will the DM be like with AI planes? I can't imagine that every AI plane will have it's pistons etc. modelled. Am I right that the complex DM is just for your own plane? This is fine online as everyone's own PC will be doing the DM calculations but what about offline with AI?

The reason I ask is that I used to fly online all the time when I was living in Europe. 6 years ago I moved to Australia and I now don't play online at all as I find it impossible to find a server under 350 ms ping here in Australia.

Yes there are some Australian servers, but nobody is ever on them when I play on weekends. So for me offline AI plane's DM and FM have become very important.

I wish internet technology/infrastructure would improve rapidly so that ping times to the US were 100ms or so; either that or that more Australians would play these sims

[Bearcat]

Originally Posted by SlipBall

I have always been against "clickable", The ability to program key's/buttons for all controls/switches was my hope for this sim. Some what accurate starting procedure was also a big hope of mine, but it will not be in the release it seems. I will most likely hold off on the release version, and see what developes down the road.

Yeah right... You believe that huh ... I sure don't.. I'd be willing to bet that 95-99% of the folks on this forum will have SoW within the first week of it's release.. including you (I see where you corrected that..) if not the first day.. especially once the reviews start coming in.. regardless to how much moaning and groaning and nit picking about misspelled this and unclickable that..

I agree with you Slip.. but I also believe that whatever 1C has in store for us on final release will be good.. and more immersive than IL2 was..

BTW, here's the officially prescribed engine start procedure from Air Publication 1565B (July 1940): Supermarine Spitfire Pilot's Notes.

Starting the Engine and Warming Up
(i) Set:

Both fuel cock levers ON
Throttle ½ Inch open
Mixture control RICH
Airscrew speed control Fully back DH 20º
Rotol 35º Propeller Lever fully forward
Radiator shutter OPEN
(ii) Operate the priming pump to prime the suction and delivery pipes. This may be judged by a sudden increase in resistance of the plunger.
(iii) Prime the engine, the number of strokes required being as follows:

Air temperature ºC: +30 +20 +10 0 -10 -20
Normal fuel: 3 4 7 13
High volatility fuel: 4 8 15

(iv) Switch ON ignition and pull out the priming pump handle.
(v) Press the starter push-button and at the same time give one stroke of the priming pump. This push-button also switches on the booster coil and should be kept depressed until the engine is firing evenly.
Note: If the engine fails to start on the first cartridge, no more priming should be carried out before firing the second, but another stroke should be given as the second cartridge is fired.
(vi) As soon as the engine is running evenly, screw down the priming pump.
Testing Engine and Installations
(i) While warming up, exercise the airscrew speed control a few times. Also make the usual checks of temperature, pressure and controls. Brake pressure should be at least 120 Lb/Sq. In.

(ii) See that the cockpit hood is locked open and that the emergency exit door is set at the "half-cock" position.

(iii) After a few minutes move the airscrew speed control fully forward.

(iv) After warming up, open the throttle to give maximum boost for cruising with WEAK mixture and test the operation of the constant speed airscrew.

(v) Open the throttle to give maximum boost for cruising with RICH mixture and check each magneto in turn. The drop in rpm. should not exceed 150.
(vi) Open the throttle fully momentarily and check the static R.P.M boost and oil pressure.
(vii) Warming up must not be unduly prolonged because the radiator temperature before taxying [sic] out must not exceed 100º C.
"When engines are being kept warm in readiness for immediate take-off, de Havilland 20º C.S. propeller should be left in fine pitch - control lever fully forward."
Final Preparation for Take-Off - Drill of Vital Actions

Drill is "T.M.P., Fuel, Flaps and Radiator"
T Trimming Tabs Elevator about one division nose down from neutral
M Mixture control RICH
P Pitch Airscrew speed control fully forward
Fuel Both cock levers ON and check contents of lower tank
Flaps UP
Radiator shutter Fully open


And you're ready to fly. Simple, isn't it? Even in CFS there was a startup procedure.. but it was simplified and dumbed down from this which is what I believe Oleg is saying when he says that systems will be modelled as opposed to full startup procedures.

If you'd rather fly than fiddle, press the E key and take off!

Note some of the highlighted portions of that procedure...

Bottom line for me is this.... Great pit screens Oleg.. great update.. I can't wait to get my mitts on this thing.. and I think that it will run on a wider range of PCs than many think... It will be interesting to see how the ballistics and the DMs work in this.. I think this sim will have layers upon layers of surprises and details that many of us haven't even thought of..

[brando]

Originally Posted by Bearcat

Yeah right... You believe that huh ... I sure don't.. I'd be willing to bet that 95-99% of the folks on this forum will have SoW within the first week of it's release.. including you (I see where you corrected that..) if not the first day.. especially once the reviews start coming in.. regardless to how much moaning and groaning and nit picking about misspelled this and unclickable that..

I agree with you Slip.. but I also believe that whatever 1C has in store for us on final release will be good.. and more immersive than IL2 was..

BTW, here's the officially prescribed engine start procedure from Air Publication 1565B (July 1940): Supermarine Spitfire Pilot's Notes.

Starting the Engine and Warming Up
(i) Set:

Both fuel cock levers ON
Throttle ½ Inch open
Mixture control RICH
Airscrew speed control Fully back DH 20º
Rotol 35º Propeller Lever fully forward
Radiator shutter OPEN
(ii) Operate the priming pump to prime the suction and delivery pipes. This may be judged by a sudden increase in resistance of the plunger.
(iii) Prime the engine, the number of strokes required being as follows:

Air temperature ºC: +30 +20 +10 0 -10 -20
Normal fuel: 3 4 7 13
High volatility fuel: 4 8 15

(iv) Switch ON ignition and pull out the priming pump handle.
(v) Press the starter push-button and at the same time give one stroke of the priming pump. This push-button also switches on the booster coil and should be kept depressed until the engine is firing evenly.
Note: If the engine fails to start on the first cartridge, no more priming should be carried out before firing the second, but another stroke should be given as the second cartridge is fired.
(vi) As soon as the engine is running evenly, screw down the priming pump.
Testing Engine and Installations
(i) While warming up, exercise the airscrew speed control a few times. Also make the usual checks of temperature, pressure and controls. Brake pressure should be at least 120 Lb/Sq. In.

(ii) See that the cockpit hood is locked open and that the emergency exit door is set at the "half-cock" position.

(iii) After a few minutes move the airscrew speed control fully forward.

(iv) After warming up, open the throttle to give maximum boost for cruising with WEAK mixture and test the operation of the constant speed airscrew.

(v) Open the throttle to give maximum boost for cruising with RICH mixture and check each magneto in turn. The drop in rpm. should not exceed 150.
(vi) Open the throttle fully momentarily and check the static R.P.M boost and oil pressure.
(vii) Warming up must not be unduly prolonged because the radiator temperature before taxying [sic] out must not exceed 100º C.
"When engines are being kept warm in readiness for immediate take-off, de Havilland 20º C.S. propeller should be left in fine pitch - control lever fully forward."
Final Preparation for Take-Off - Drill of Vital Actions

Drill is "T.M.P., Fuel, Flaps and Radiator"
T Trimming Tabs Elevator about one division nose down from neutral
M Mixture control RICH
P Pitch Airscrew speed control fully forward
Fuel Both cock levers ON and check contents of lower tank
Flaps UP
Radiator shutter Fully open


And you're ready to fly. Simple, isn't it? Even in CFS there was a startup procedure.. but it was simplified and dumbed down from this which is what I believe Oleg is saying when he says that systems will be modelled as opposed to full startup procedures.

If you'd rather fly than fiddle, press the E key and take off!

Note some of the highlighted portions of that procedure...

Bottom line for me is this.... Great pit screens Oleg.. great update.. I can't wait to get my mitts on this thing.. and I think that it will run on a wider range of PCs than many think... It will be interesting to see how the ballistics and the DMs work in this.. I think this sim will have layers upon layers of surprises and details that many of us haven't even thought of..

And that's only the drill for a single-engined fighter. Try sorting that for a twin-engined bomber + taxying to the line + waiting for the rest + taking off + climbing to a mimimum 10,000 feet over France + + picking up the escorts ...... something near an hour so far ...... and then the fun begins. Let's hope you didn't make some kind of mistake during the start-up procedure and need to abort your flight!

[Sutts]

Originally Posted by brando

And that's only the drill for a single-engined fighter. Try sorting that for a twin-engined bomber + taxying to the line + waiting for the rest + taking off + climbing to a mimimum 10,000 feet over France + + picking up the escorts ...... something near an hour so far ...... and then the fun begins. Let's hope you didn't make some kind of mistake during the start-up procedure and need to abort your flight!

I think you're missing the point here. Flying a heavy bomber mission was almost all about procedures. Without procedures there's very little else to keep your brain active.

Take away procedures and what are we left with:

1. Hit the start engines key
2. Ignore the gauges as they're boring and don't have any effect on anything anyhow
3. Firewall throttles and bounce into the air
4. Fly 2-4 hours in general direction of target
5. On approach to target, forget about the little boring details like wind speed, drift, altitude. Setting the bomb sight up would take procedures which are for nerds.
6. Push button to drop bombs over target
7. Turn around a go home for tea and medals


While I find it hard to accept that all those detailed add-on products for the MS series were produced for a "tiny" minority, I do agree that Oleg needs to focus on the things that matter to him.

I'm very happy to leave the extras to third parties and will gladly pay good money for their efforts. With all the research and coding already undertaken for individual aircraft, I should think existing third parties may be able to produce add-ons for SoW quite quickly.

I find it a shame that the modern generation has such a short attention span that anything other than instant combat and glory is considered boring and therefore mocked. We mustn't forget that to the guys who actually flew these aircraft in combat, procedures (both on the ground and in the air) were everything...their lives really did depend on them.

[Oleg Maddox]

Originally Posted by Sutts

I think you're missing the point here. Flying a heavy bomber mission was almost all about procedures. Without procedures there's very little else to keep your brain active.

Take away procedures and what are we left with:

1. Hit the start engines key
2. Ignore the gauges as they're boring and don't have any effect on anything anyhow
3. Firewall throttles and bounce into the air
4. Fly 2-4 hours in general direction of target
5. On approach to target, forget about the little boring details like wind speed, drift, altitude. Setting the bomb sight up would take procedures which are for nerds.
6. Push button to drop bombs over target
7. Turn around a go home for tea and medals


While I find it hard to accept that all those detailed add-on products for the MS series were produced for a "tiny" minority, I do agree that Oleg needs to focus on the things that matter to him.

I'm very happy to leave the extras to third parties and will gladly pay good money for their efforts. With all the research and coding already undertaken for individual aircraft, I should think existing third parties may be able to produce add-ons for SoW quite quickly.

I find it a shame that that the modern generation has such a short attention span that anything other than instant combat and glory is considered boring and therefore mocked. We mustn't forget that to the guys who actually flew these aircraft in combat, procedures (both on the ground and in the air) were everything...their lives really did depend on them.

From which modern game it is?
I think it isn't even from Il-2....

[Sutts]

Originally Posted by Oleg Maddox

From which modern game it is?
I think it isn't even from Il-2....

Oleg, I was responding to the following comment by brando:

And that's only the drill for a single-engined fighter. Try sorting that for a twin-engined bomber + taxying to the line + waiting for the rest + taking off + climbing to a mimimum 10,000 feet over France + + picking up the escorts ...... something near an hour so far ...... and then the fun begins. Let's hope you didn't make some kind of mistake during the start-up procedure and need to abort your flight!

He is suggesting that the fun only starts once you get over enemy territory. I guess this kind of attitude is created by the constant adrenaline fueled online furballs. I think if you asked real aircrew you'd find that procedures were vital and because of these procedures, aircrew were kept very busy and were far from bored before they reached the enemy coast.

I think takeoff with a full bomb and fuel load was probably the most dangerous/exciting/terrifying time for an aircrew. Lose an engine on takeoff and you'll most likely die in a fireball. I'd like to feel the same tension on take off....if I take a short cut and skip the warm up or fail to check the vital signs of the engines then it really is quite serious.

I still feel strongly that combat is only part of the simulator experience and knowing your aircraft systems and limits is just as important as being good in a dog fight. There are still a large number of us who prefer the offline experience. Without the checks and procedures there's very little to keep the mind occupied until you meet the enemy.

I'm not criticising your decisions at all and as I've already pointed out in a previous post, by modelling the systems you've already given us the majority of what we need for a startup procedure anyhow.

What I am trying to counter is the view that a combat simulator is JUST about the combat.