Look what I saw flying today!

Originally Posted by ElAurens

Sad that the only reason it still flies is that some hobbyists put it back in the air. Not sad that that they did it, just sad that your MoD has let your country's defense fall to the sad state it is in.

Now it looks like your new aircraft carriers are going to get the axe, which of course means the end of the Royal Navy in a real sense, and the cancellation of the F 35 program for the RN, leaving you with no real naval single seater capable of competing on the world stage.

An island nation that is still a major player in the world economy, and in world politics, without their own viable naval air component, and hence, no ability to project power and defend your island in an increasingly troubled world.

Your politicians are as daft as ours are.

Thanks for your concern for our great nation, but we also hope to cut back on invading countries illegally and getting involved with right wing foreign policy such as Israel and USA (bush administration). This means we can save some cash and rather than spending it on misery making machines of destruction we can hopefully try and do something creative that will benefit mankind. If we do achieve this who's going to want to attack us?

[wilky210]

Originally Posted by Tree_UK

Thanks for your concern for our great nation, but we also hope to cut back on invading countries illegally and getting involved with right wing foreign policy such as Israel and USA (bush administration). This means we can save some cash and rather than spending it on misery making machines of destruction we can hopefully try and do something creative that will benefit mankind. I we achieve this who's going to want to attack us?

Someone sure hates the USA.

Originally Posted by Tree_UK

Thanks for your concern for our great nation, but we also hope to cut back on invading countries illegally and getting involved with right wing foreign policy such as Israel and USA (bush administration). This means we can save some cash and rather than spending it on misery making machines of destruction we can hopefully try and do something creative that will benefit mankind. I we achieve this who's going to want to attack us?

Me?, I dont hate anyone brother.

[ElAurens]

Originally Posted by Tree_UK

Thanks for your concern for our great nation, but we also hope to cut back on invading countries illegally and getting involved with right wing foreign policy such as Israel and USA (bush administration). This means we can save some cash and rather than spending it on misery making machines of destruction we can hopefully try and do something creative that will benefit mankind. If we do achieve this who's going to want to attack us?

Ah Tree, showing his usual naivete.

It's not about invading anyone, it's about the safety, security and well being of your own people.

You know, every time one of our nations drops it's guard like this, in an effort to show that they mean no ill will towards the world, a cold slap in the face usually follows.

Not every nation on this beautiful blue sphere is as good natured as either of our countries are Tree. There are those that will take advantage of any weakness shown.

Peace is not secured by laying down and letting the bad guys trample you. It is gained by making sure that the conditions for peace exist, that is by keeping the bad dogs at bay, so the good people can flourish.

I hope that you, and those in the rest of the Western civilized democratic nations come to understand this before it is too late, and our way of life is gone.

Peace.

Originally Posted by ElAurens

Ah Tree, showing his usual naivete.

It's not about invading anyone, it's about the safety, security and well being of your own people.

You know, every time one of our nations drops it's guard like this, in an effort to show that they mean no ill will towards the world, a cold slap in the face usually follows.

Not every nation on this beautiful blue sphere is as good natured as either of our countries are Tree. There are those that will take advantage of any weakness shown.

Peace is not secured by laying down and letting the bad guys trample you. It is gained by making sure that the conditions for peace exist, that is by keeping the bad dogs at bay, so the good people can flourish.

I hope that you, and those in the rest of the Western civilized democratic nations come to understand this before it is too late, and our way of life is gone.

Peace.

I guess thats the way the Iranian people see it, they know that if they dont arm up soon then israel will probably try to have a piece of them as well. So i guess you have a point.

[Blackdog_kt]

Originally Posted by ElAurens

Ah Tree, showing his usual naivete.

It's not about invading anyone, it's about the safety, security and well being of your own people.

You know, every time one of our nations drops it's guard like this, in an effort to show that they mean no ill will towards the world, a cold slap in the face usually follows.

Not every nation on this beautiful blue sphere is as good natured as either of our countries are Tree. There are those that will take advantage of any weakness shown.

Peace is not secured by laying down and letting the bad guys trample you. It is gained by making sure that the conditions for peace exist, that is by keeping the bad dogs at bay, so the good people can flourish.

I hope that you, and those in the rest of the Western civilized democratic nations come to understand this before it is too late, and our way of life is gone.

Peace.

That's half the story. Peace comes by making yourself a bad choice of a target to attack, sure. Peace also comes by doing your best to not piss people off half way around the globe

So, i agree with defence but disagree with the concept of power projection on a global scale no matter where it comes from. Power projection is just a politically correct term for "telling others how to run their countries".
Countries have borders and they are there for a reason, as long as people stay on their side of the fence or at least don't intervene without an explicit invitation by the landlord in question, things will be quieter and better for everyone.

It's not a "one or the other" deal, that's just a fake and forced dilemma presented to polarize discussions and make sweeping arguments possible. If someone criticizes application of military force, does that automatically make him a tree-hugging Taliban lover? If someone accepts the need for a strong military deterrent, does that automatically make him a fascist power-mongering world dictator? The answer is no on both, but unfortunately that's how humans discuss such matters, by polarizing everything so that they can suck in the critical bystanders who prefer to have a more balanced opinion

There's a short joke story that illustrates this. Two friends, Jake and Mike, meet for a few beers and a chat one evening, after Mike has returned from the far east, where he studied various philosophies under an Asian master of the oriental culture.
"So Mike, what did you learn there?" asks Jake.
"First of all, i learned the application of reason and deductive thought by asking questions and evaluating the answers given" says Mike.

Jake: "What is this?"

Mike: "I'll give you an example to illustrate. You have an aquarium at your house right?"

J: "Yes i do"

M: "So you like fish and are fascinated by marine life in general?"

J: "Why of course."

M: "Then it's a safe bet to assume that you also like going on vacation to places with sunny beaches during summer, so that you can enjoy the sea, the sun and have a good swim."

J: "Definitely so."

M: " And when you go there, there are women in bathing suits or less that you can't help but check out, right?"

J: "Yes, of course, i'm scoping the ladies big time there."

M: "Then i can conclude that you are heterosexual"

Jake takes this newfound knowledge and goes off to impress anothe one of their buddies, Alex.

J: "Say Alex, Mike taught me the application of reason just as he was taught by a master of Asian philosophy, wanna see?"

A: "Sure, go ahead."

J: "You happen to have an aquarium at your place?"

A: "As a matter of fact i don't Jake."

J: "Too bad for you then, cause that makes you gay"

(no offense to people of different sexual preferences by the way)

I bet Eries dosn't have an aquarium either.



P.S Nice post Blackdog, but i couldn't resist an attack on Eries for once.

[ATAG_Dutch]

Originally Posted by Blackdog_kt

Peace also comes by doing your best to not piss people off half way around the globe
So, i agree with defence but disagree with the concept of power projection on a global scale no matter where it comes from. Power projection is just a politically correct term for "telling others how to run their countries".

Agree. This is why Gulf 1 was justified (invasion of Kuwait).
Gulf 2 and Afghanistan are highly debatable. Having a military presence on both sides of Iran whilst removing Saddam with his 'weapons of mass destruction' and the Taliban as supporters of global fundamentalist terrorism? Or 'we don't like your religion, your politics, your customs, your monetary system or the fact that you have control of lots of oil and heroin, so have this!'?
Or all of the above?

It's also why I highlighted the defence of the Falklands as an example, which is incidentally the only time and place the Vulcan was used in anger, using conventional iron bombs and Shrike missiles to help liberate some British sheep farmers living on sovereign British territory, who'd been subjected to an aggressive military invasion by a right wing dictatorship.
Britain would be incapable of defending them now, with no long range bombers, not enough long range tankers that can refuel eachother, and no airborne defence of the fleet. We couldn't land any size of army without serious losses, if at all.
I don't wish for a return to the cold war stand-off either, but I do wish the country was capable of defending it's overseas posessions. As things are, we'd struggle to defend Bland Britain itself.

[Crumpp]

Power projection is just a politically correct term for "telling others how to run their countries".

Study history, wars begin only because one side thinks they can prevail in the use of violence.

Peace is maintained through power.

[Splitter]

Originally Posted by Crumpp

Study history, wars begin only because one side thinks they can prevail in the use of violence.

Peace is maintained through power.

Bravo! You get it. Nations get attacked when the other side, whoever it is, perceives a weakness....whatever that might be, That weakness can be lack of military strength, lack of economic strength, lack of security, lack of "will", etc..

Small nations can attack large nations in some way if they think the larger nation is unwilling to respond. Or if they can commit the attack without getting caught.

There were changes in US policy on terrorism since the Reagan years.

Reagan would send planes to blow you up, if some of your family got killed, eh. He was perceived as a "warmonger" and liable to do anything when provoked...it worked.

Bush I basically carried on the same mindset, but he wasn't seen as being as "crazy" as Reagan. He decided to not kill all the soldiers on the Highway of Death and not to continue on to Baghdad to take out the real cause of the first Gulf War. Reason? He didn't want to turn world opinion against the US. So, we had to go back and finish the job about a decade later.

Clinton decided that terrorism and attacks on US interests were going to be treated as a "legal issue". He passed on the opportunity to take out Osama. He failed to respond to the USS Cole bombing. You hit us, we might respond with a very measured response...if we feel like it. Our military was gutted and our troops under supplied. Human intel was cut back (expensive) in favor of electronic intel (cheaper). We were relaxed. This mind set lead to 9/11.

After 9/11, our stance changed. Terrorism was longer viewed as a legal matter, it was now viewed as an act of war. We would go after any organization that supported terrorists. We would go after any nation that gave them money or comfort. They didn't have to be directly tied to the act itself. It put the world on notice....if you poke the lion it might attack.

Now, with Barack Husein Obama (notice the name, race, and lineage of our current president when you accuse us of hate), we are back to the Clinton doctrine. We are trying to make nice with the world, even those who despise us. Any act of terrorism or attack on US assets (or threat) is seen as a legal matter. We are pulling troops out of Iraq and turning that country's security over to the Iraqi government...whether or not they remain free depends on how willing they are to fight for freedom because it doesn't come without a fight. We have set the date of July 2011 to begin withdrawing troops from Afghanistan. All the terrorists have to do is wait it out and walk back in.

Yeah, I know, America is the Great Satan. I wonder how the women in Afghanistan are going to feel about going back to being property when we leave. But, after all, it's their country and they can run it how they see fit, right? That's just one example of course. I'm glad our critics think there is nothing wrong with stoning or denying women a vote (or driving a car or being seen in public).

I submit that there is evil in the world. And there is good. And there is gray....but not everything is gray. I say the radicals are evil.

One thing you all can be sure of: don't count on the US right now. If you are an ally...and I use that term loosely because we understand your dislike for us....you cannot count on our assistance if you need it and request it. We don't have it to give really and our leadership is trying to be seen as more "friendly" in the eyes of the world. So presently we have neither the means nor the will.

However, I am equally sure that we can't count on any other countries to come to our aid either, so it all works out. You all have neither the means nor the will either.

What could change our current mindset? Another 9/11. The anniversary is tomorrow, btw. Those that hate us can sit back, give a little laugh, and revel in their firm knowledge that "they brought it on themselves". Those that don't completely hate us should dig up some videos of people flinging themselves out of the World Trade Center for the express ride to the bottom floor rather than burn.

On this side of the Atlantic, many have forgotten that day and what led to it. Not all as you can tell, but many.

Splitter